so, any suggestions to explain why suddenly this week, the roadster's boiling over on trips over ten miles?..

only clues are that:

1. I think I'm losing the 50/50 coolant as I drive, as I start with it full when cold, but after 10-20 miles, the gauge starts to rise (it normally barely registers)...

2. the overflow is hot & foamy (foamy green coolant, not the beige foam that would suggest oil contamination)...

3. afterwards, I can add coolant to the system...

4. I don't see any obvious leaks anywhere (no, JunkYardDog, I haven't put a new fs core in yet...was trying to pooch it until next spring to save some bucks for now...so there's still that patina corrosion on this core)...

5. no other issues, such as steam from the exhaust or loss of power, etc...


any help would be appreciated...


epi

Hi chevrolet,

If I remember correctly your vehicle had sat for a very long time before you received it. I would wager that debris has been loosened in the cooling system and has relocated in the radiator.

Suggest you drain and "back flush" and observe what if anything comes out.

ray,

that's a very good point...it had gone about 200 miles in the previous 20 years...I've put 500 miles on it just this year...

I'm familiar with back flushing on modern iron, but what's the best way to do it with this old boy?..


epi

I would disconnect both the top and lower radiator hose. Flush the radiator in BOTH directions and do the same for the block.

If it has a thermostat installed remove it for this procedure.

You would hope to see some BAD stuff coming out of both the radiator and block.

ray,

thanks...I'll give it a "shot"...


epi

First tighten the water pump nut a little. Even though it will not leak water it will draw air past the packing and seals into the block causing foam in the coolant.

chip,

thank you for the tip...I'll try that first to see if the problem abates...the flushing still sounds like a good idea to get the system clean and working well...


epi

I did not intend to inhibit you from the flush. It is a must every two years when you change the coolant. It is highly recommended in every vehicle to change the coolant every two years. An exception may be the new extended life antifreeze factory filled in todays vehicles. But I would never go past the five years that they claim. Also flush the brake fluid [ed. in your '36 and later Chevy or '39 and later F&$#]every two years and you will eliminate problems with corrosion and leaks. Maybe I should write a book on cooling system and brake maintance. The company I use to work for in the Automotive chemical group was and probably still is number one in brake fluid.

Cooling problem possible solution.

May years ago I had a boil over problem with a 35 Standard Sedan. A long time-older VCCA member Everett Cooper gave me some advise. This was a solution that he used in the 30's fixing cars at a garage. I followed his advise and never had another problem. When I told him later that I followed his advise with no further problems he just grinned and smiled. The following may work for someone else.

1) Empty entire water cooling system. Drain from the lower radiator hose. Remove any thermostat.
2) Re-attach the hose
3) Here is where I hesitated. But after explaination I understood. Pour in to radiator 1 to 1-1/2 gallon of mineral spirits. Available at your local hardware store. Do not over fill.
4) Start engine. Let run for 10 minutes. This will circulate thru the cooling system and desolve grease build up from the water pump.
5) Shut engine off. Remove lower radiator hose. Drain liquid / sludge. Please be environmentally friendly with waste.
6) Repeat steps 3 - 4 - 5
7) After cleaning with two flushes now mix a solution of 50% Detergent ( TIDE LIQUID without bleach ) and warm water. Please mix to fill system.
8) Check that the hose is connected, Fill radiator 3/4 full with the detergent and water solution.
9) Start engine and let circulate. Run at idle for 10 minutes.
10) Shut engine off. Remove lower radiator hose. Drain liquid. Please be environmentally friendly with waste.
11) Repeat steps 8 - 9 -10
12) If you still are removing a lot of dirt repeat steps 8 - 9 - 10 one more time.
13) After the detergent / water solution is complete. Check to make sure all hoses are back in place.
14) Fill radiator with clear water.
15) Let run for 10 minutes at idle.
16) Shut off engine, drain from lower hose, reattach hose.
17) Repeat step 14 - 15 - 16 until water is clear.
18) Check packing nut for packing and ample grease.
19) Fill with your proven personel choice of coolant. Some prefer antifreeze, glycol, alcohol. I preferred plain water in a non presurized system.

As I said earlier I listened to a person that experienced these problems when the cars where daily drivers. I never had a problem again. In fact the car always ran cool. I have used the 5/8 hole in a sheet of brass in place of a thermostat. This is held in place between 2 housing gaskets. It is a time consuming project. But, it solved my problem. I know this was long. But I think alot of people could benefit from this process Good luck.

chip,

don't worry, I didn't take your message that way...

how tight should the packing nut be?..I tightened it one complete turn, but was afraid to go further...didn't take much force to tighten, but then again, that 1" wrench is mighty long...

I like this as a possibility for my problem, as it started after I turned down the grease cup...maybe I forced some old grease out that was helping the packing's seal?..


epi

ken,

thanks for taking the time to share this process with us...I'm going to work through chip's packing nut suggestion first to see if it solves my problem...hopefully it does...then I'll be ready for a thorough cooling system cleaning...


epi

how tight should the packing nut be?..

epi

VCCA Son, thank you for a great post, a couple of questions for you and others:

Are there any problems with getting loose stuff where you don't want it?

How much water does the '32 hold?

That is a good question. I played with the one on my '28 for a while. Right after I bought the car I decided maybe I should repack the water pump since I remember having to do that a lot with my Model A **** back in the early 50s. The pump would drip several drops of coolant when it was shut down after being driven for a while. I noticed the shaft housing bushing still had quite a bit of threads showing, I unscrewed the packing nut and slid it to the front of the shaft cleaned the threads,but didn't take any old packing out and wrapped a round of rope packing around the shaft, tried to start the nut and it barely started, I took the new packing out and started the nut back on, tightened it to where it was snug, with the engine idleing so that I could see if the belt was going to slip, in case I got the nut too tight, only about a couple of turns tighter than it originally was. It has not dripped more than a drop or two since and I haven't had to add more cooling than just replace the expansion loss (about three inches down into the radiator neck). I have only tightened it a couple of pulls (1/12 of a turn each pull)in the last 600 miles. I change oil every trip or 500 miles and check the packing nut and turn in the water pump grease cup a round or so, I have been useing the cream colored Lubriplate waterpump grease.
I believe that having good clean packing properly tightened and useing a good waterpump grease will keep shaft wear down and also keep the pump from sucking air into the cooling system, which I am convinced causes many problems of over heating from foaming and burping coolant out the overflow.

P.S. I see that B.B has decided to censor out some bad words including FRD, Ha!

Kepi,
I would be very careful about putting mineral spirits into a cooling system. It is flamable and not sure how to dispose of the waste properly. I also don't think the hoses are fully compatible with mineral spirits. It will clean out any hydrocarbon (oil, grease) contamination. I would rather try either a caustic type cleaner (also for grease and oils) (like the old solid draino). They are agressive toward aluminum so are not used in modern cooling systems but are fully compatible with our old systems. Disposal should be much easier to deal with. The cautic based cleaners will not do much with corrosion products (like rust) or scale (like from hard water). Acids (mineral or organic) or chelating agents are better for them. Modern cleaners use organic acids (like oxyalic or citric) or chelating agents as they are not as agressive toward aluminum as the mineral acids (muriatic, sulfuric, etc.) I use dilute muriatic acid followed by a few bicarbonate flushes, followed by a couple of clean water flushes. It works well in our old Chevys but will dissolve some of the corrosion products that seal some of weak spots on our old radiators. Therefore, it is not uncommon for a few seeps or leaks to be found after cleaning.

chip,

thanks for the cautionary...

the roadster foamed a little after the packing nut tightening, so I guess I'll try tightening a little more...other than seizing the water pump shaft from excessive frictional force, anything else I should be concerned about as I continue to crank the packing nut down?..


epi

I got quite a "kick" out of the 1928 Repair manual, It reccomended using LYE (Sodium Hydroxide) to flush the radiator I am assumeing to get rid of the waterpump grease and other "oily' substances and acidity that contaminated the cooling systems back before good coolants with corrosion inhibitors were in common use. I don't guess there would be a problem of flushing that chemical down the sewer drain would there Chipper? Isn't it still a component of drain cleaners?

Lots of good cleaning ideas! I would also recommend checking for compression leaking into the cooling system aka leaking head gasket.This also can cause foaming and overheating.

m006840,

thanks for the suggestion...I've discounted that myself, as I've not seen any coolant contamination of the motor oil, as I would expect to see if the head gasket is leaking...


epi

Hi Chevrolet, I chaced an overheating problem for a few months and finaly got it resolved. Rather than go through it again here, head for " Engine bottom noise" Aug 27,2002 and take a look...It may help. Good luck

If you have an exhaust leak into the head from a crack an exhaust valve seat for example, you can get bubbling or foaming in the coolant, but you may not get any water leaking into the oil.

leo,

thanks...I'll check it out...


epi

dog,

yeah, I know...but you know me...I don't even want to THINK about that possibility...


epi

Ya, I know........no one does, but you just might have to think about it down the road if nothing else cures the problem.

I wouldn't discount the head gsk so quickly-It not only seals the coolant in, it also seals the air in the combustion chamber.Because you can,t see coolant leaking does not mean compression is not leaking out,perhaps into the coolant.You can try looking into the radiator with the engine running and look for air bubbles.If you want to eliminate the chance the air is coming past the water pump try pressurising the cylinders by adapting an air fitting to a spark plug.You will have to check each cylinder indivdually while watching the radiator for air bubbles.Use a regulator on the air line to control the pressure to what normal cyl pressure should be.Good luck!!

Vccason. that is an exelent program for flushing. Only thing I could add is to use a non foaming detergent. Plain Borax detergent was commonly used. Just my two cents worth.

m006840,

what's an easy way to make an air connection?..and would you say about 75psi?..


epi

I tightened the water pump shaft packing nut another half turn yesterday, and am able to still rotate the fan blade by hand...I am starting to wonder how the packing nut could be so loose?..shall I keep tightening?..


epi

With the proper adjustment of the packing nut, there should be no leaks, and you should still be able to turn the fan blade by hand with the fan belt removed.

dog,

then, could my problem be as stupid as my fan belt being too loose, as I can muscle the fan blade to check the packing nut tightness without removing the fan belt?..


epi

If you can turn your fan blade and pulley without the fan belt turning, you belt is too loose.

dog,

well, I tightened the belt and went for a test run of about five miles...still a little overflow when I shut down back in the garage...

the mystery continues...


epi

Is the fluid loss comeing out of the overflow tube? if it is you may be filling the radiator too full not allowing for expansion, or it may be that you aren't getting all the air that was sucked into the water pump out yet, before you start up each time top off the radiator and then after several trips check the fluid level if you can see it about 3 or 4 inches down below the neck try running it at that level, it should stabilize at that level, just check it each time and only add to fill to that point.

mrmack,

I had been filling it to within an inch of the bottom of the neck, per recommendations from this forum in previous threads...

is this too full?..


epi

Three inches is how far I can reach into the radiator on the 28, your car may be different, but the 28 will hold that level consistantly, with out heating or overflowing, that isn't very far down into the radiator, so it works for me.

mrmack,

what happened to your post?..couldn't read the whole message...only what showed on the most active page...


epi

Chevrolet we have noticed a problem with the site, when I tried to post, as also happened to JunkYardDog, we got a message that the site was out of space and we could not write to it, so I shortened my post......

Yep, and there have been problems with the site again today as well. Still getting the error window from time to time about the site being out of space.

so, should I let it run a little and see if it stabilizes at some reasonable level?..


epi

This is the type of string (s) that would be neat to edit and put on the tech site for a reference.

If we did this then whenever the topic comes up again in the future, we could just reference the person to the tech site on the topic.

What do you guys think about doing that????

Oil Can- my apologies for not replying to your post sooner-Just retd from a couple days vaca time.As for the adapter take a spark plug of the proper thread and remove the porcelain-weld or braze an air line adapter in place to accept the coupling from your air supply.As for the pressure check your compression and use that as a guideline.test the cylinders at or near top dead center.perhaps the compression test itself may lead you to the cause-

Gator ...since you asked.. I think we should delete every post and every thread that is over 30 days old... During the time that a post is available for viewing anyone wanting to save the material should save it to a disc or disc drive on his computer....What this site does not need to be is a vast reference library for chatter members of which there are over 2000, VCCA has no obligation to become baby-sitters for anyone outside of the club. (IMHO)

You are right about the site not becoming a library site for non-members. If we did this I would only support it if it was only available for members to see and use.

This is the only VCCA 'library' I can use.

I think the tech committee has looked into making some links "private, for members only".

I haven't read every reply but wonder if the baffle behind the water pump has rusted through? If you take the pump off and can see the water jacket around the cylinders then yes and the water won't pump and it will overheat. Happened to mine.

cabboy,

hmmm, got a little time this week...maybe I could have a look see...

anything I should know before pulling my water pump off?..


epi

interesting discussion in 1912-28: new radiator cores that is similar to my problem that has been discussed in this thread...

by swk1:

and jimokoontz:

maybe I should dump the anti-freeze coolant and go with water & corrosion inhibitor before I pull the water pump?..

Depends if you want to fix the problem or just cover it up. If covered up it will not go away or get better.

chip,

I thought this might be the solution, not just a cover-up...but I guess you don't agree...what do you think?..


epi

It is true that antifreeze/water mixtures have a lower surface tension and therefore more stable bubbles. But it is the production of the bubbles that produces the foam. Bubbles are formed by introduction of gas into the liquid. The gas may be from vaporizing (boiling) the liquid, water in this case; air leaking into the system (past the water pump shaft for example) or exhaust entering the cooling system. Without the gas bubbles there will not be any foam.

I know that Steve and Jim have apparently solved their foaming problems by only using water and possibly "water pump lubricant" and/or rust inhibitor. However I can assure you that they have not solved the problem of gas entering the system. They have only covered it up or eliminated the obvious signs of it.

chip,

thanks for your explanation...makes great sense...guess I'll try pulling off that water pump, after all...will get a look at the baffle & trhe shaft seal...any further advice?..


epi

well, the boiling over problem "healed" itself a month ago while I was still working through the many good suggestions posted here...

I'm now thinking that ray was right from the very beginning...accumulated, loose crud, maybe blocking the radiator tubes?..

I'm going to do another flush this week to see if the problem stays fixed...I drained the system today and the three-week-old coolant is looking a little dirty already...

at least I verified that there hasn't been a thermostat installed...


epi

well, I finally had a chance to try looking for bubbles down the radiator neck while one of my sons cranked the engine, having first removed all but one spark plug...moved through all six without any bubbles appearing...

btw, since the problem corrected itself a while back, there hasn't been any foaming, boiling over, oil or tan-colored foam, etc...

either the water pump packing nut finally sealed adequately (thanks, chip) or the radiator blockage cleared enough (thanks, ray)...I did do a system flush a couple weeks ago as routine maintenance...


epi

When the problem comes back, and unfortunately it will you will have a good idea what to do.

Another coverup is to add an overflow tank. All you need is a cap that seals the radiator neck and a hose from the end of the overflow tube to the bottom of the tank. Make sure that the tank is well vented so the air can escape. The tank should hold about a quart of fluid. Only fill to bottom of the tank or less when cold. When you shut off the engine or return to idle from sustained higher speed watch the tank (if it is a clear, or see through plastic or glass). You will see the tank filling and then gas bubbles. When the engine cools the coolant will be drawn back into the engine. Yes is works for non-pressurized but sealed systems too.

chip,

thanks, chip...yes, I know that the problem will ultimately rear its ugly head again...but in the meantime, I'll continue running through the various good suggestions posted here to see if I can locate the source of the problem, or at least more clues...

I think rather than install an overflow tank (wasn't an option, was it?), I'll go ahead and replace the radiator core & hoses, and rebuild the water pump (there aren't any packing nut threads showing)...

any suggestions what parts I'll need for that pump repacking & where to purchase?..


epi

Gary Wallace sells water pump packing. I would try that before doing all the other stuff, unless you have done that already (re-pack the pump). Usually you will see a dripping of coolant after shutting down the engine if the re-packing is needed,a small drip is not unusual and usually just requires a couple or pulls on the packing nut to fix if you have an ample amount of threads showing. I don't know if any of the other Shade trees are useing "O" rings or not, maybe we can get some comments here about that.
Is there any literature out there about re-packing the Chevrolet water pumps, and useing a packing hook? I learned this years ago when I was a teenager driving a Model "A" Fourd.

mack,

thanks for the reply...no, I don't see any dampness whatsoever around the shaft...I'm just following through with chip's suggestion that air may be sucking through this packing while operating...

also, the core's at least 35 years old, if not original and previously, ray correctly pointed out that the roadster only went 500 miles during most of that period...

so, I'm slowly going through all the options and hoping it's not internal...as I recently posted, it hasn't boiled over in the past few months, and I try to put 5-15 miles on it each week to keep things moving...


epi

Maybe you just got it "broke to the saddle" and it is going to behave!

mack,

I wish I thought that was going to be the case...


epi

I ran a compression test today and had these readings...first number is highest reading, followed by pressure held steady (except cylinder #5) after a few minutes:

1 67# 65#
2 65# 60#
3 68# 57#
4 60# 60#
5 55# 45# and continued to slowly bleed down
6 65# 60#

they were all lower than I would have expected and #5 is a concern, of course...comments?..


epi

Kepi,
Looks like a couple of leaking exhaust valves. It can be fixed but requires removing the head. May be able to just lap them if the faces are not eaten too much. If you plan to drive it a lot I would fix it now. If only occasionally I might live with it a while and checking every now and then to see if it gets too much worse.

chip,

how much is "drive it a lot"?..and "much worse"?..

I drive it no more than fifteen miles at a stretch, but I try to drive it at least once a week, sometimes just up the road & back (a mile or so)...


epi