IM BRINGING THIS SUBJECT UP, BECAUSE I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHEN BOTTOM ENGINE NOISE IS DETECTED LIKE A CLANKING NOISE, A CHATTER SOUND OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, HOW DOES ONE GO ABOUT CHECKING IT BEFORE A ENGINE TEAR DOWN. IS THERE LISTENING DEVICES A PERSON CAN USE TO TRY AND DETECT WHAT THE PROBLEM MIGHT BE, ALSO CAN A ENGINE RUN GOOD AND STILL HAVE DIFFERENT BOTTOM END NOISES. ALSO BY RUNNING THE ENGINE AND PULLING ONE SPARK PLUG WIRE AT A TIME FOR EACH CYLINDER, CAN THAT ISOLATE THE PROBLEM TO THAT CYLINDER. NOT BEING A MECHANIC, THESE ARE THINGS I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FEEDBACK ON. THANKS.

Maybe.

Don,Congradulations you left MrMack speachless...........................This can be a difficult subject as we all describe noises in a different way.Main bearing noises will be a heavy thumping or knocking on a pull.Some times you can hear a loose main give a few knocks when the engine is first started and before the pressure is up.This will only last a seconed or two. The main bearings are the big bearings that hold the crank shaft to the block(1932 has 3)Also if they make noise when driving they will get louder as the oil gets hot...
a loose connecting rod will make a lighter rapping or knock while accelerating,could also get louder when hot.Noise will stop if plug wire is disconnected on that cylinder.Piston will slap when cold will be heard under pull.Not real common with that engine unless cyls. are badly worn.Shorting out plug will also stop noise. Wrist pins will make a deep knocking noise at idle.Much deeper noise than tappet noise.Also could get worse at when hot.the pin noise can also be heard at other speeds when driving if very loose.The heavy iron pistons in those years developed pin noise and it could get quite loud.Timing gear can develope a hard to describe clatter ,can not be shorted out,and should always be replaced on a Chev.engine.This is the first thing to fail on many of these cars and the first thing I replace on mine.Also the oil passage behind the engine front mounting plate should be cleaned at this time as they sludge up causing the timing gear to wear out.As I said at the beginning we all describe engine noises in a different way and I tried to keep it simple,hope I suceeded

Well Donald and Chipper....Sometimes you can get folks to elaborate on what you would like to say but for one reason or another you don't or can't yourself ...just by saying ...."Maybe!" :p .......
Now if I can just get Chipper to answer my email about changeing tires and wheels on a '28 I will be satisfied for a while....a short while probably.

HI, MR MACK. I HOPE YOU DID NOT GET TONGUE TIED ON THE REMEDYS FOR ENGINE NOISE. I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR SOME OF YOUR THOUGHTS AND CURES FOR FINDING DIFFERENT ENGINE NOISES AND KNOCKS. I HOPE YOU HAVE NOT BEEN AROUND THOSE ONE CYLINDER ENGINES TOO MUCH, BECASUSE THEY COULD EFFECT YOUR HEARING AND THEN YOU COULD NOT EVEN HEAR THEM DARE TEXAS BUZZARDS FLY OVERHEAD.

BY THE WAY, WHAT IS THE TAXAS STATE BURD??????

Well, most of the engines I have are indeed one lungers, mowers, trimmers, chainsaws, pressure washers, most of the oil well pump jacks are now powered with electric motors so when we are dove hunting it is really quiet compared to when they all had Fairbanks & Morris gas engines.

I have tried to listen for engine noises and determine where the problems lie. But except for the odd times when it is a water pump, generator bearings. I haven't had much success. It usually requires a tear down to fix anything internally anyways. But the info from the Chipper is really informative, specially the stuff on the timeing gear and cam and the valve train was for me. .

The state burd is not Lady Burd or Lonney Burd but it is the Mocking Burd.

Just a small update...Chipper did answer my e-mail, seems like something was fouled up on my end (as usual ) and when I sent it the second time he received it and sent back an informative reply.

Thanks, Chevy Chip!

Don,
The best item that I have ever found to detect the source of engine noises is a mechanics stethascope. It has a probe that can be placed in various locations to pinpoint where the noise is the loudest. If you don't have one a large screwdriver, tire iron, metal rod or ? can be placed against the ear and engine.

CAUTION: DON'T stick it in your ear as damage is difficult to repair and may be painful.

CAUTION: You will hear sounds that you never heard before. Many of them (whirrs, humms, clicks, etc.) are normal engine noises.

You can also use it to check bearings in water pumps, generators, starters, distributors, etc.

In a Stovebolt 6 engine the likely cause is a worn rod bearing and this often causes a piston to slap.

Pulling plug wires one-by-one may tell you what cylinder.
A stethascope will give general direction.
Get motor up to operating temp and take notes on what and where you hear the noise.
Vary the RPM's and take note.

Then its likely that the rocker cover, push rod cover will need to come off so you can see if things are moving OK when it is running. Visually double check the rocker arms , push rods, and tappets just to make sure they are all moving OK and not sticking.

IT MAY rarely be "bad gasoline" or a funky detonation due to something in the ignition.... maybe its a sqeaky generator or water pump bearing or belt ....
but most often you will have to drain the oil (strain thru a nylon stocking and look for metal bits or gummmy stuff) and pull the oil pan off. Look up with a bright light and see if cylnder walls are scuffed and see if rod bearings are loose.

Most often the problem is rod bearings or main bearings. But as Chev Nut said, it might be the quirky timing gear known to cause problems in your particular year of engine.

DON"T drive the car till you find the problem! It will get worse and leave you walkin' !!

C.C. you also can use an Oklahoma gas credit card (a siphon hose of about 1/4" I.D.) the air column works in the hose acts as a monohascope! just be sure all the gasoline is dried up or you will get an ear full! at least that is what happened to me the last time........... Ya!

THE ENGINE IN QUESTION NOW HAS 308 MILES ON IT PLUS ABOUT TWENTY HOURS RUNNING TIME IN THE GARAGE AT DIFFERENT SPEEDS. THE ENGINE WAS SIXTY THOUSANDTHS OVER BEFORE THE REBUILD. THE ENGINE WAS RESLEVED BACK TO O AND THE RODS HAVE INSERTS IN THEM. ALUMINUM PISTONS ARE IN THE ENGINE WITH CAST IRON RINGS. BEFORE A TEARDOWN, THE ENGINE MACHINE SHOP PERSON CAME TO MY PLACE AND PRETTY MUCH SAID IT IS DEFINATELY A LOWER ENGINE PROBLEM NOISE. NOT BEING A MECHANIC, BEFORE ANYTHING IS TORN DOWN, IM TRYING TO GET ALL THE INFORMATION I CAN ABOUT POSSIBLE ENGINE NOISES AND PROBLEMS. THANKS FOR ALL THE GOOD INFORMATION SO FAR. I THINK THIS IS A GOOD SESSION FOR A LOT OF GUYS WHO CAN EXCHANGE GOOD INFORMATION AND IDEAS FROM GOOD MECHANICS AROUND THE COUNTRY, AND THEIR EXPERIENCES WITH ENGINE PROBLEMS THEY HAVE HAD IN THE PAST.

Don, if you drop the oil pan you can check the bearing clearances with Plastigage made by Perfect Circle and available at better auto parts stores, green package for .001 to .003 inch.
While the pan is off, thread a few temporary 1/4 20 screws from the top so they extend about 1/2" below the engine block. They will keep the gaskets in place and work like guide pins for getting the oil pan in place.

Don,

I took an old doctor's stethascope and cut the "cup"off and inserted a long metal rod. With this I can touch any part of the motor easily and safely. Like ChevyChip said you will hear a lot of things you never knew were there.

For the noise in your motor you might want to check out;

1. Page 49-50 of the "Chevrolet Repair Manuel" for '32's gives a lesson on how to "detect" what different sounds in the motor may be.

2. On page 16 the same book it tells you how to adjust the bearings if they are worn and making a thuding noise. When the motor was rebuilt I hope the rebuilders put the shims in the bearings.

Hope this helps you.

Gator, a question, when the rods have been modified is the clearance still adjusted with shims, like the babbit rods? I have never changed babbit rods for inserts YET! knock on wood, I may have to ,but, till then I will remain a BABBIT Head, or should it be a BOBBing Babbit head?

Knowing more of the history of the engine I'll go along with d2d2.The rod and main bearing clearences should be checked before you ruin the crank shaft or bearings.This is one area a stethascope can't reach but they do bring out some intresting noises that can scare you.Noises that are usually blended together.It sounds as if you had a good complete rebuild job.I am an aluminum piston fan too.The lighter weight takes a lot of load off from the conn. rod bearings.

Chev Nut,
I haven't quite digested the part of the aluminum pistons makeing it easier on the rod bearings....let's see..... the piston pushes down on the rod on the power stroke.... then the rod pushes the piston back up on the exhaust stroke,.....and then the rod jerks the piston back down..... and then the rod shoves the piston back up against compression and it starts all over again.....Yes!... I see it now!!.... since the rod does most of the work in a 4 cycle engine and the piston has it's one claim to fame on the power stroke!, then it spends most of the time getting shoved and jerked around, it looks like the lighter the better!
As one guru would say...." Ya!"
I just say.... "That right Kemo Sabe?"

At one time I thought I was an aluminum piston fan too. But once I put them in a '32 and ran it for several thousand miles I became a cast iron piston fan!!! The engines run much smoother. They maybe a bit slower to rev. but the flywheel also has a big affect on revs.

Yes, for you guys that believe it was balance, the rods were weight matched to +/- 2 grams overall and end for end. The pistons were also weight matched to ~ 1 gram. No I have not gone to the same efforts with the cast iron pistons didn't think it would make that much difference.

Ever wonder why Chevy used aluminum pistons in '28 and then did not use them again for 50 years? Me too.

I haven't decided for my self which would be better for me, I put Aluminum in a Model "A" years ago, but my brother jerked it and put in a flathead V/8 before it was worn out. Now I try to put back what it comes with new.

Alex Taub once said cast iron pistons reduced the manufacturing cost. When asked why the crankshaft was not drilled for oil to the rod bearings he said for the volume of engines they were producing there would be a higher rate of bearing failure due to the inability to completely remove the drilled out metal. When asked why the 6 has 3 mains instead of 4 he said this engine is really two 3 cylinder engines, each of which is inherently balanced.

Is that why the exhaust manifold has 4 ports and theintake has 3 ports? maybe the 265 is 4 H.D. twins grafted together. Then there is the 9 cylinder Cadillac engine in the WWII tank?

Well.....wadda know! The Chipper and the Dog agree again! I'm with Chipper on this.......I love the cast iron pistons, and I have them in my 1930 coupe. Everything was totally balanced, and with the engine running at idle you can balance a nickel on its side on top of the cylinder head!

Really JunkYardDog? I had a Nickle like that once!

Oh I forgot was your Nickle round or obblong? Mine was mostly round and flat on both sides one side had an Native American's head (heads) and the other side had a American Bison! (tails)

Hey wake up down there JunkYardDog...I thought they called it a Hot Water Six!

Really! Why do you think that they called the six cylinder Chevy the "Cast Iron Wonder"? Because of the cast iron pistons.....that's why! Yep!

"when the rods have been modified is the clearance still adjusted with shims"

Nope....the clearance is NOT adjustable once you pick the final size of the bearing insert. No shims on the rod caps.When wear makes the clearance open up, you replace the insert with a bigger size insert.

{BUT I have seen a guy put a piece of shim stock under the insert and thus tighten up the clearance! Motor ran OK , but I wouldn't try it!
Heck I've seen guys check the clearance with a tiny piece of paper on the bearing and then swing the rod & piston around on the crank to see if it was too loose!
It worked when I double checked with a micrometer.}

Oh...and the cast iron pistons. Well I always heard that the various "cast iron" and "cast alloy irons surface" pistons were used cause they were cheap, great at low rpm's, and lasted a very long time. Somes Chevy sales hype even said they were good for "quiet" economy and preventing oil consumption because of the close piston skirt fit. At higher racing rpm's they werent good on the rods and had a tendency to break near the lower ring groove.

The 1953 Powerglide 235 had cast aluminum pistons, it was full pressure oiling with the new rod bearing inserts. The trend in the 1950's was the push for more horsepower thru higher rpm's and the aluminum pistons had been very much race proven. The aluminum clearance is wider and thus they are noisy, use more oil, and wear will be worse than iron. But they weigh about 1/3+ less than iron; they accelerate better; combustion is cooler; and they are better for the rods.

Most post 1937 216 & 235 engine rebuilds I've seen are with the aluminum pistons.

As to Chevys' problem: the only time I could find a reference to a KNocking in a rebuilt engine was in an old tech manual that said an engine will knock for a "few hundred miles" if new piston pins are used in old pistons. This doesn't sound like Chevy's problem.

Chevy, me thinks ya gots ta pull the oil pan off.

Hi CHEVY,

Just re-read some of the posts and it appears you had to sleeve all cylinders? You could have a loose sleeve.

A '31 I just rebuilt had to be sleeved, hope it doesn't become a problem. It has aluminum pistons. So far it has been 40 miles and is running well and sounds good. I recently heard of a sleeved model A where the sleeve moved down into the crankshaft and locked up the engine.

THANKS FOR ALL THE GOOD INFORMATION ON THE ENGINE NOISE PROBLEMS. NOW I THINK MY HEAD IS SPINNING WITH ALL THE THINGS THAT COULD BE WRONG. THIS IS A GREAT SUBJECT TO TALK ABOUT ENGINE PROBLEMS, I HAVE HAD TWO CALLS FROM PEOPLE TELLING ME THEY ARE GETTING GREAT INFORMATION ABOUT THEIR ENGINES. KEEP THE COMMENTS COMING, IT IS HELPFUL FOR MANY PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF WHO ARE NOT MECHANICS LIKE ALOT OF YOU GUYS MAKING COMMENTS FROM YOUR EXPERIENCES AND EXPERTISE ABOUT ENGINES. THANKS DON

Hey Donald! If ya gotta pull the pan, drink about 2 cases of Budweiser first and then the job will be a lot easier!

WELL, HERE IS THE LATEST EPISODE IN MY ENGINE. BILLIE BOY BARKER, JIM FARRIS, TOMMY MACHINE GUN FRANKHAUSER AND THE GUY WHO REBUILT THE MOTOR JUST LEFT MY GARAGE AND THIS IS THE LATEST NEWS BROADCAST. WE SHORTED OUT THE NUMBER SIX CYLINDER AND RIGHT AWAY GOT A LOUD KNOCK. WE THEN PULLED THE SCREWDRIVER AWAY AND STILL GOT A LIGHTER KNOCK.WE DID THIS SEVERAL TIMES TO THE NUMBER SIX CYLINDER WITH THE SAME RESULTS EVERY TIME. A MINUTE OR TWO LATER AS WE WERE DISCUSSING THE SITSUATION OF WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE ENGINE, THE KNOCKING NOISE COMPLETELY WENT AWAY, EVEN WHEN WE SHORTED THE NUMBER SIX CYLINDER OUT. THE THOUGHT WAS DISCUSSED AND THEY CAME UP WITH THIS????? THE RODS HAVE INSERTS AND THEY THINK THAT THE INSERT HAS TURNED AND IS CAUSING THE PROBLEM AND WHEN IT MOVES AGAIN THE NOISE WILL HAPPEN AGAIN AND THEN TURN AND GO AWAY AGAIN. I WILL TAKE THE PAN OFF AND WE WILL TAKE ALOOK. HAS ANYONE EVER HAD A SIMILAR PROBLEM WITH A INSERT MOVING. THANKS

Not all that unusual. If by accident the two 1/2's are inserted backward, or the "tangs" got smashed in assembly, or in the case of your 'inserted rods'-----it was just a poor conversion.

THANKS RAY FOR THE INFO. I WILL PROBABLY TAKE THE OIL PAN OFF TOMORROW AND GO FROM THERE. I DO FEEL A LITTLE RELIEVED THAT MAYBE IT IS THE INSERT GIVING THE PROBLEM AND THE FIX WONT BE TO BAD TO DO, HOPEFULLY.

Sounds like a job that's going to take at least two cases of Budweiser! Better get the Model T dudes involved in this so that they can help ya!

Good luck Don...I'll bet you have been loosing sleep over this.Been there once or twice myself..........I will agree that there is a place for cast iron pistons.In there day they were much more durable than the old aluminum pistons and stll are good now for engines that are operated at low to medium speeds.I prefer the alum. pistons as I drive my cars to meets etc.(which I enjoy) And often cover 500 or more miles a day on interstates.That why I feel there better for my cause.even the 34 runs 55-60 with no problems.It is bored out to .040 and has a sleeve in #2 cyl. because the lower cyl. wall has a crack in it. It has never caused a problem. When I bought my 53 stick new I installed 53 PG alum. pistons in it before ever driving it,it took a lot of high RPM abuse with no problems.The factory Alum. pistons were fit with only .0015" clearence which was almost the same as iron and there not only eaiser on the rod brgs. but the wrist pins stay much quiter.All 1942 cars (all makes) were forced to use iron pistons (Chev.& Pontiac already had them) and all used larger rod bearings to compensate for the increased weight.

Chevy,
If you have a spun insert the oil from the "scoop" will not have flowed to the bearing very well, or the wrist pin very well.

AntiqueMechanic Ray is right-on!

YOUR Engine MAY vary but in General:

The inserts that have been placed into a babbitt rod are usually "keyed" with a small tang on each half of the shell that mates to a groove in the rod and cap. The insert shells will have a large hole in the bottom insert that may be slightly offset for the dipper angle. The top insert will usually have a smaller oil hole close to top dead center.

I have seen the bottom shell installed wrong so that the big oil hole was almost blocked because the installer didn't pay attention that the rod cap hole was "offset". Made me wonder if the guy put some of the rod caps on backwards.

Re-builders should have a cylinder #number stamped on the rod cap facing the Cam of the motor, check for it.

.

THANKS FOR ALL THE HELPFULL INFORMATION CHEVGENE AND JOHNNY F. I WILL CHECK OUT YOUR COMMENTS ON THE INSERTS, THAT COULD VERY WELL BE WHAT HAPPENED, THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN PUT IN WRONG.

THANKS RAY FOR YOUR INPUT ON THE ENGINE.

Don,If its not too late check if the trough in the oil pan for #6 has as much oil in it as the others when you drop the pan.If the line in the side of the block dosen't line up with the gutter on the side of the pan that feeds #6 it could starve the bearing of oil.

THANKS CHEVGENE, I WILL CHECK THAT OUT, I HAVENT TAKEN THE PAN OFF YET. I HAVE A COUPLE OF GOLF TOURNAMENTS IN THE WAY OF WORKING ON THE ENGINE. ILL KEEP YOU POSTED FOR FURTHER HELP. THANKS DON

WELL, I JUST TOOK THE ENGINE PAN OFF AND ALL THE TROUGHS ARE FULL OF OIL IN THE PAN. THERE SEEMS TO BE A LITTLE GRIT IN THE BOTTOM OF THE PAN. THE ENGINE MECHANIC WILL COME OVER TUESDAY AND CHECK EVERYTHING OUT AND SEE IF THE ROD INSERT IN NUMBER SIX CYLINDER HAS MOVED. I WILL HAVE MORE INFORMATION THEN, UNTIL THEN, I WILL TRY AND GET SOME SLEEP AND TRY NOT TO WORRY ABOUT IT. THANKS DON??????????

WELL, THIS IS THE LATEST ON MY ENGINE AT THE MOMENT. MARK AT THE MACHINE SHOP CAME OVER AND TOOK THE ROD INSERTS OUT OF NUMBER SIX ROD. THE INSERTS HAVE NOT MOVED AT ALL. ONE THING HE FOUND IS THAT THE INSERTS DO NOT HAVE A OIL GROVE RUNNING THRU THEM. HE WILL BE BACK OVER TOMORROW AND CHECK HOW MUCH CLEARANCE THERE IS BETWEEN THE INSERT AND THE CRANK. MARK TOOK THE INSERT OUT OF THE BOTTOM ONE AND FOUND A SHIM BEHIND THE INSERT. HE DID NOT SEEM VERY PLEASED ABOUT IT AND SAID HE WOULD BE BACK TOMORROW. ??????????? LATER DON

Well Donald it looks like you are getting to the "Bottom" of your problems, wuz the crankshaft ok?, I hope you get the car fixed soon , The JunkYardDog is getting plumb out of control again, you need to either change his chow or reel his chain in a little more.
Bow !Wow!

THE CRANKSHAFT LOOKS OK, BUT UNTIL HE FURTHER CHECKS THINGS OUT, I DONT KNOW. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, IS PUTTING SHIMS BEHIND THE ROD INSERTS A BAD THING TO DO ???? DON

Bow wow wow!! Arf arf arf!!! Hey Donald, ya need to get in touch with the dude that did your engine and ring his neck! Either that or send him down here and the JunkYardDog will bite him big time! Ya! Arf, arf!!!

Don,Putting a shim under the insert is not acceptable in a newly rebuilt engine.This was done years ago as a patch job for used cars etc.Chevrolet published a guide to reconditioning used cars in the late thirties and on old Plymouths they recomended using brown paper under the inserts to quiet down the rods.The old prewar Plymouths could have more rod problems that any Chev.and were common to have the crankshafts worn out of round........The 1932 rod bearing had two oil groves cut in the bearing.They were in the form of an X meeting at the top and bottom at the hole that lines up with the dipper at the bottom.they are very important as the distribute th oil entering the bearing.there are two holes on the top of the rod that join in the top groves and these are necessary according to Chevrolet as an air bleed that lets the oil pass thru the bearing...You are luckey that the crankshaft wasn't harmed.

IT LOOKS LIKE , THAT MY ONLY CHOICE IS TO PUT SHIMS ON THE BACKSIDE OF THE ROD INSERTS, OR PULL THE ENGINE AND REPLACE THE CRANK. AS OF YET, I DONT KNOW HOW LOOSE THE INSERTS ARE TO THE CRANK. MARK AT THE MACHINE SHOP IS COMING OVER TOMORROW TO CHECK THINGS OUT. IS THERE ANYBODY OUT THERE WHO MAY HAVE SOME OF THOSE TAPERED SHIMS JUST IN CASE I DECIDE TO SHIM THE INSERTS. THANKS DON

Donald, It seems to me (no expert, just a shade tree) that the shims were added because the insert was too loose, that means the crankshaft is closer to standard, rather than worn down, why couldn't another size of insert be used ? Or is it that your crank falls in the center of two sizes of inserts?

If it ain't one thing it is always something else, right?

HEY MR MACK, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THE INSERTS ARE ONLY IN ONE SIZE THAT IS USED FOR MY RODS, SO SHIMS ARE REQUIRED . THANKS DON

You MUST use a micrometer on the crankshaft rod bearing journals to see if its out-of-round.

Shimming "under an insert" got real popular when the full-pressure inserts (called slip-ins)first came into use. When inserts first took the place of spun babbitt a way to finalize clearance was:
"if a pair of micrometers are available, the crankshaft journal should be miked in at least 4 places and the average reading taken. Then look at the crankshaft bearing journal specs to see how much the crank is undersize. {inserts used to come in .002,.005,.010, etc}. If there is no size that is just right then you use "shims" to make the final fit...

HOW TO: insert the bearing shell in the upper half of the connecting rod and the lower shell in the lower half. Place a piece of .0015 shim-stock about 1/2 inch square on TOP (outside) of the lower bearing and with this shim-stock in place put the rod cap back on and tighten to torque spec. Turn the crankshaft around and a 'slight' drag should be felt. If no drag, then you keep adding shims (on top of the inserts!)till you get a slight drag. The final total of shims will be the "oil clearance". Once you know the amount of oil clearance then you use shims between (under) the upper bearing shell and the rod, and also between(under) the lower bearing shell and the cap in the right thickness to take up all but apx .002 of gap. Install shims around the outer edge of the bearing and then replace the cap on the connecting rod and make certain it does not bind." per Chilton 1955.
This method was a way to make up for sloppy machine work. Choosing the proper size insert to match the crankshaft journal was the prefered method because the shims may slide and block oil holes.

Plastigage will give you a "quick" idea of the clearance, micrometers are much better.

You really need to see if the cylinder walls are scored and if the crank journal is scratched or pitted. I would also wiggle that rod to see if the wrist pin is sticking.

Now, with the crank in the engine: I would carefully take ALL the rod caps off all the pistons, label VERY carefully the piston number and direction the part was facing, NOTE any shims and exactly were they came from!; then micrometer ALL the crank rod journals to see the overall shape of the crank. A good rebuilder MUST have done this and kept the measurements.

Your #6 should be visibly checked, as much as possible, for piston fit in the cylinder, rings sticking, wrist pin sticking, while your under the motor.

Hey Donald! You mentioned to me in an email that your crank is .040" undersize. What size is the rod inserts then? The fellow that did the inserts for you should know since he had to go by the .040" dimension on the crank journal when he did the oversize rod inserts for you.

Donald, This whole deal sounds "Squirrelly" to me, I hope you can get a second opinnion from someone that doesn't have a stake in this overhaul job, I know sometimes that is diffucult to do. Did this overhaul job involve trueing the crankshaft and regrinding to .040 under just to fit inserted rods? are all the rod journel throws ground to the .040 under size or just #6?
I have expressed my opinion on inserted rod bearings Vs. poured or spun babbit bearings before and will not hesitate to do so again. I don't think babbited rods should be changed to inserted rods without doing it in a way that will insure good oil flow when the splash and sling oil system is used. It is kinda like shooting 20 gauge shells in a 12 gauge shotgun, sometimes it works, but why do it? Answer, modern shops don't know nor do they want to know about babbited rods. inserts are the quickie and cheap cure all Do you think GM went to inserts because they are better, I doubt it. If you go to inserted rods go all the way and convert to a full pressure system with a new crankshaft, etc. you may as well go to a later model full pressure 235, 261 0r even a 292 after all they look the same to those that don't know better

Don
Not in that new engine??? Was the noise there when you first started it or has it developed over the 300 mi. and 20 hrs.?
I had a real knock when first starting my new rebuild and it was the #2 rod nut barely clipping the cam shaft. the #2 and #5 have only 15 thousands clearance and a replacement rod bolt and nut was the culprit. I'd like to hear it run. I'm available here in auburn Give me a call. Chris

It is strange that a professionally rebuilt engine should have any abnormal noise. Seeing how this discussion has branched into a general discussion on engine noises in general I thought that I would add my two pence worth.
One source of strange noises can be due to failure of the crankshaft thrust or incorrect alignment of the thrust in a new engine which causes the rods to be misaligned with the crankshaft neither of which are healthy.

Ken

"Professionally rebuilt" should maybe be a topic all its own.

One of the most VITAL questions to ask when getting an old 1929-53 Chevy 6 rebuilt is "How is the rebuilder going to set the oil nozzles, dippers, and troughs?". Most rebuilders I have talked too didn't have the slightest idea what I was refering too. {That's why some of the Goobers and Gomers want to charge $$$$ to do a "full pressure" crankshaft drilling....cause that's what they read in Hot-Rod mags and they don't want to know how to properly set oiling in a Stovebolt engine.}

So...... Chevy ,
how did your rebuilder set the "oil aiming" dippers and troughs? Did he have the special tools, or did he guess?
Any of these that are wrong could cause a low-end-knock. If the rebuilder knows, and properly performs, the "oil aiming" it's a very good sign he at least knows what's important to your engine.

I always ask to see the "special tools" the rebuilder is going to use.... can't BS the real thing.

THANKS JOHNNY F FOR THE INFORMATION. THE CLEARANCE FROM INSERT TO CRANK IS CHECKING OUT TO .001 TO .002 ON ALL SIX RODS. THANKS DON

lil' johnny will you please rebuild my '32 motor for me? I will deliver it to you at your convenience.

If you can't, is there anyone you can recomend to me????

Gator,
I wish I had the shop-space to build them ol' motors! Heck, I'm still learning everyday more stuff from this here forum.

I got a method you might try where your at.
I grew up in North St. Louis City. Tough neighborhood where most all the Dads' worked at either Anhueser-Busch, or the St. Louis Chevrolet Plant. Most everybody I knew drove a Chevy and drank Busch Beer. The local mechanics in the garage had to really know their stuff, cause its hard to fool them ol' UAW guys on car repairs! As a kid, I used to sweep the floors and clean tools in the gargages.... this is a tad of what I learned.....

So what you got to do is ask a lot of questions at all your "local" machine shops (even some in surrounding cities) and find who is the "most respected" old machine shop around. Then you go a' courtin' the old guy who made that business so good. Sometimes you might bring the "master machinist" a very good cigar and maybe a sneek him a cold beer; other "masters" go for a good donut and excellent coffee: the younger guys like a real fancy "girlie" calendars (Oh ,the Ditzler Girls...) . Tell the guy what you got and showing him is even better. Once you got them talkin' to you, sit at their feet and remember what they say.
Gather as much information on your own to form an "intelligent" question first!
The question you need to ask from the "master machinist" is who he thinks is the local "master mechanic". Then you repeat the process and for heavens sake take notes on everything these guys say! The "master mechanic" and the "master machinst' will lead you to the righteous path of of the "master body and paint" man etc, etc, etc. Good knowledge ain't never cheap and you got the burden of knowing 'why' the guy is doing the work....he is supposed to handle the "how".

Respect the work of the true "master mechanic": he will never give up till the job is done right. {especially if he knows you know all the other "masters" in the area!}. A true master will "eat-a-job" to get it right (ie pay the cost overun himself and loose money).

Combine this search for knowledge with this here internet VCCA Forum stuff, get lots of shop manuals, service notes, parts catalogs, and especially watch for "long distance jobbers". These are mail-order shops that specialize, and have excellent reputations, for doing stuff like babbitt rods or re-sleeving brake cylinders.

Old Chevies is an Art , and you gots' to be the artist.

Dang near brung a tear to my eye!!!

Twang, twwaanng went my Heart strings!

D2D2, that Lil' Johnny is 1/2 preacher , 1/2 mechanic and 1/2 story teller!

1/2 + 1/2+ 1/2= 1 1/2......hmmm does that mean he's large? :rolleyes: Maybe that's why he's called lil' johnny.

Ok, Do you believe a glass is half full or 1 1/2 full?....
I like to make sure they are running over!

That is the new Texas Math As per the Enron Math Book! (0.5 +0.5+0.5= exactly 100%

So Lil" Johnny must give 110% simple, Right?
:p :p :p

Try doing that to Ohms Law and you could be in for a shock.

Ok D2D2, Ohms Law, Huuummm, Is that the law that says you can't actually have but one wife? Or is it the one about Roe Vs. Wade? We made one up here for electricity kinda like Ohms law:
1.5 R = V/ I

It is Ohmron's law.

Nope! "Ohms Law" is that new speeding law that some cop by the name of "Ohms" dreamed up down there in that good old place called "Arkansas"!! You know......Clinton Country??

I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT SPARK PLUGS???? WHEN YOU TAKE A SPARK PLUG OUT AND THERE IS OIL ON IT, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE REASONS. THANKS DON

Don, It indicates that oil is getting into the combustion chamber.The two ways it can enter is past the valve guides ,Which would indicate valves too loose in the guides.Test by seeing if valves move side to side in guides ( a slight movement is OK).Not real likely as these engines have no valve seals and will tolorate some oil this way (seals can be fitted).The other way is from the bottom past the rings and pistons.Could broken rings,piston ring lands broken, rings not seated (Broken-in yet) Depending on amount etc. hard to say.Even a lot of ideling could cause it.Then should burn off with driving unless spark plugs are too cold .....or wrong length??

THANKS GENE.THE REASON I ASK IS THAT WHEN I BROKE DOWN, AND THE CARB GOT CORK PIECES IN IT FROM WHEN THE FUEL PUMP BOWL CORK GASKET DISCINAGRATED, THE CAR WAS PUSHED ALOT TRYING TO START IT AND WE FLOODED THE CARB OUT SEVERAL TIMES. AFTER THE CARB GOT CLEANED OUT, COME TO FIND OUT THAT THE COIL ALSO WENT BAD. WHEN I GOT THE CAR BACK HOME AND TOOK THE SPARK AND THE NUMBER 4, 5, AND 6 CYLINDER PLUGS HAD OIL ON THEM. I NEVER HAD CARBON OR OIL ON THE PLUGS BEFORE ALL THIS HAPPENED. THANKS DON

Don,The flooding would have caused the plugs to be fouled with gas.They could be wet with gas or appear black ,either would "go away" with some driving.Perhaps what you saw was gas.If it would oil foul the plugs I think you would have blue smoke from the exhaust.Gas would cause black smoke while flooded...........

Donald, There is another reason the plug could be soaked with oil, If it is not fireing due to a weak spark that won't jump the gap or a bad sparkplug, or sparkplug wire or if the sparkplug wire is shorted to ground, or the distributer cap is arced, etc. etc. the plug will be fouled with oil.

THANKS GENE AND MR MACK, I WILL DO SOME MORE CHECKING. I HAVE NOW CHECKED ALL SIX CYLINDERS AND THE ROD INSERTS TO CRANK ALL CHECK OUT AT .002 SKIP SAYS I SHOULD SHIM TO .001 AND MARC AT THE MACHINE SHOP THINKS THAT WOULD BE TO TIGHT, HE SAYS .002 IS IN RANGE AND TO LEAVE ALONE. I LIKE THE IDEA OF .001 LIKE SKIP SAYS??????????????? ANY COMMENTS????

Donald, have you decided what the noise really was?
did all the oil holes in the inserts line up with the holes in the rods and caps?

when this is all over with I think we are going to find out Don is writing a book or we will see a 1932 in the G&D for sale cheap.......The rods will be just as Quiet with either clearence.If you have inserts they should maintain the clearence as they (the inserts) have much thinner babbit than the original rods which mean there is no thick babbit to compress and the rods should stay "tight" so .002" would be fine.

THANKS GENE FOR THE COMMENTS AND EXPERTISE. MR MACK, I DONT KNOW WHAT IS CAUSING THE KNOCK NOISE. IT IS IN NUMBER SIX CYLINDER AND EVERYTHING IS CHECKING OUT SO FAR. THE ONLY THING I FOUND SO FAR IS THAT THE INSERTS DO NOT HAVE OIL GROVES IN ANY OF THEM. WE ARE GROOVING THE INSERTS NOW AND I DONT KNOW IF NOT HAVING THE OIL GROOVES BEFORE WOULD CAUSE A KNOCKING IN NUMBER SIX CYLINDER ALONE?? THE MAINS ARE OK AND THE INSERT CLEARANCE IS OK. WHAT ELSE. THANKS DON

Clearance on a babbitt rod that has been switched to insert is an experiment. Since it wasn't a factory conversion Chevrolet is real silent on the specs.
Chev Nut is right about it not making much difference between .001-.002 when it comes to your knocking "noise".
(Chevrolet switched to a thinner babbitt coating on their spun-poured rods in 1948. At this time Chevy found that a thinner layer of babbitt was actually better after it had intially compressed . The point is that mechanics tightened their rod oil clearance from around .001-.0025 in the early 40's, to the late 40's .0003-.0013 with the thinner babbitts, and finally to .0007-.0028 with full inserts in 1955. The oil clearance is not only important for the "rods" BUT is very important for the wrist pin lubrication and oil consumption.) So maybe a .002 clearance on a "new" insert with a "newly" ground and polished crank will be OK??? If you had a pro do the inserts he should know the spec for your conversion based on the brand of insert he used.

As far as other stuff causing a low end knock on an insert converted rebuilt:
Main bearings (wrong clearance, clogged oil passageway caused by bits of metal)
Piston (wrist) pin (sticking or not aligned with piston/rod)
Piston noise caused by cam ground Aluminum pistons having wrong cylinder side wall clearance.
Slightly bent rods.
Oil pan and dippers/nozzles out of alignment.
Main or rod bearings nuts/bolts NOT properly torqued (this happens a LOT on newly rebuilt motors as the bolts/nuts should be torqued in a series of 3 steps) Etc, etc etc.

If no visible signs of anything wrong...maybe putting rods caps on with proper clearance, checking rod and main bearing fastener torques, check dipper alignment, check oil pump output flow with drill in distributer housing, use "thin" break-in oil , and the run engine and test with vacuum gauge and compression test for balance and baseline?

Heres a pic of a 1935 206 Stovebolt...note the oil path arrows on top the rod bearings showing how the oil spins out from the bearing

1935 206 Stovebolt
{look and see the options box and the bottom link to view the pic as "normal" or "full size", detail will be better}

Since the noise appears to come from #6 cylinder and you have not found a cause, maybe it is not really from # 6. It could be loose flywheel bolts, broken spring(s) in pressure plate or other problems in this area. It is easy to think that it is # 6 since the noise will be transmitted by the crankshaft.

THANKS JOHNNY F, YOU HAVE A GREAT WEALTH OF MECHANICAL KNOWLEDGE AND IM SURE THIS INFORMATION IS HELPFUL FOR OTHER PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO DO NOT KNOW VERY MUCH WHEN IT COMES TO ENGINE WORK. THIS IS WHAT MAKES THE CHAT SIGHT SO GOOD FOR EVERYONE. CHEVY CHIP, I THINK I MAY DO SOME CHECKING ON WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THE PRESSURE PLATE AND BROKEN SPRING, MAYBE WHEN MY CAR WAS BROKE DOWN IN VICTORIA , WE PUSHED THE CAR SEVERAL TIMES AND TOWARDS THE END OF PUSHING, THERE WAS A NOISE I HAD NEVER HEARD BEFORE, WHICH I THOUGHT MAY BE COMING FROM WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. THE NOISE, I THINK WAS KINDA LIKE A FLUTTERING NOISE, REALLY SOMETHING I HAD NEVER HEARD BEFORE. AND AFTER THE CAR WAS BROUGHT HOME, THIS IS WHEN THE NOISE FIRST APPEARED AS A KNOCKING NOISE IN NUMBER SIX CYLINDER. MORE CHECKING IS WHAT IS NEEDED AS EVERYTHING CHECKS OUT OK IN THE NUMBER SIX CYLINDER. I STILL FIND IT AMAZING THAT WHEN WE SHORTED OUT THE PLUG IN NUMBER SIX,WE GOT A QUITE LOUD KNOCKING, AND AS WE LEFT THE ENGINE RUNNING, A FEW MINUTES LATER THE KNOCK WAS COMPLETELY GONE AND THE ENGINE SOUNDED GREAT??????????

Hey Donald......didn't you also mention that all of your rod caps had regular hex nuts with lockwashers?

On the "oily" spark plugs, remember, you discovered that you had a weak or bad coil and a weak spark would give you bad spark plug readings. Check your plugs after you get your engine running with the new coil and then see what they look like.

THANKS SKIP, I WILL LET YOU KNOW AFTER, OR WHEN I DO GET THE ENGINE RUNNING. I REALLY THINK I SHOULD HAVE ANOTHER ENGINE BUILT AND TAKE THE ONE I HAVE AND PUT IT IN A MUSEUM, FOR HOW NOT TO REBUILD ENGINES. HECK, YA NEVER KNOW, MR MACK MIGHT BE A CANIDATE FOR MY ENGINE??????

Going by your last description of the noise and if Chips suggestion does't work out I came up with a new idea.Did something metal get injested thru the carb. that is getting between the piston and the head???Such as a carb. throtle plate screw (brass but still makes noise) This was common on some V8's when carbon would break off and would sound like a rod.

your engine wouldn't have any carbon as yet that is why I suggested metal or ??? With the large 18 mm plug hole you may be able to see the top of the piston ,,,,No I don"t think so with the odd 32 combustion chamber,it would require a Boroscope.

Donald, there is one thing you and Marc need to look at, it may be that as the engine became broke in that a rod cap nut may be hitting the edge of the pan flange on the pan or block, with the inserted rod conversion there is only a few thousandths clearance. You may need to do a little fileing to get more clearance.
Or it may not even be the engine like you suggest may be in the flywheel or clutch, even the front of the tranny.

Sorry Donald but I have a couple of 53 powerglide engines waiting in the wings and a nice 261 I am balanceing and getting ready for my 51 Belair, Now if I could just get that durn body and paint work done.

HI CHEVY GENE, I DONT THINK ANYTHING WENT DOWN THE CARB. I THINK THE REASON FOR THE PLUGS BEING CARBONED UP WAS FROM FLOODING THE CARB SO MUCH PUSHING THE CAR AND TRYING TO START THE ENGINE. ??? THERE IS NO SIGN OF ANY MARKS ON THE ROD BOLTS OR NUTS HITTING ANYTHING. MARC WILL PUT OIL GROOVES IN THE INSERTS AND I WOULD LIKE TO SHIM THE RODS FROM .002 TO .001 OR TO ONE AND A HALF THOUSANDTHS. DOES THIS SOUND OK?????????

Sounds good to me! I think that you would be better off under .002".

SKIP I REALLY THINK IF I GO UNDER .002, I SHOULD BE OK, ILL SEE WHAT MARC DOES WHEN HE COMES BACK OVER. DON

If it were mine I would shoot for .001" to .0015" seeing I'm starting with a fresh set of bearings.

Donald, If you go below .001 be damned sure that you have good measurements on the crank at least across the journals and three places around the journals, and use a good assembly grease to lube the crank and keep out any grit that may be present.
Since my USMC days I rely on Fisk Oil Co's Lubriplate products, they have a really good assembly grease, I have a 235 that was put together with it in 1985 and it looked like new when it was torn down last year after being dry stored for over 16 years.

THANKS, CHEV GENE AND MR MACK, I WILL TAKE YOUR ADVICE AND HOPEFULLY THIS DARN ENGINE WILL WORK OUT, OR IM BRINGING IT TO TEXAS AND HAVE CHEVY CHIP WORK ON IT, WELL I WONDER IF THAT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA. THE CHIPPER MIGHT JUST WANT TO MAKE A FOUR CYLINDER OUT OF IT. THAT WAY HE WOULD JUST DO AWAY WITH NUMBER SIX CYLINDER?????????AND MAYBE THE PROBLEM WOULD BE SOLVED??

Hey Donald,
I seen a piture of dat car, brin it on down. I hav a cup L of stable mates in the barn. Wud go goot wif da far truk. Itz a '31 and has sex hoes in da blok fur pisstons. It maks some bangn noses when idaling so wud bee a gut mach.

NO CHEVY CHIP, I THINK I BETTER KEEP DE CAR IN WASHINGTON, I THINK THE SOLUTION IS TO DROP A 350 IN IT AND START DRAG RACING, EXCEPT I THINK THE METAL BODY WOULD TEAR AWAY FROM THE WOOD, WITH ALL THAT HORSEPOWER??? MAYBE I COULD BRING THE CAR TO TEXAS AND SEE HOW IT WOULD HANDLE IN THE DESART HEAT AND SEE HOW IT WOULD HANDLE DODGING ALL THOSE WILD CRITTERS ROAMING THE STREETS, KINDA LIKE MACKIE WACKIE AND HIS CLAN

Donald, It would probably work out jest fine, have to watch out for the road-runners, they have some weird fasination for old Chevys, specially the ones with a burd on the radiator cap.

HEY MACKIE WACKY, THAT CHEVY WITH DE BIRD ON THE FRONT IS TOO TOO FAST FER DEM DARE TAXAS ROAD RUNNERS

I getting anxious to hear the latest results when Donny gets his engine running again.I have a feeling the time is near.Perhaps we should be making bets as to the outcome.

I am betting on the Chevrolet over the roadrunner, and yes they are anthills, fireant hills, do you want for us to send you all some fireants?

HEY MR MACK, AND CHEVY CHIP, KEEP YOUR FIRE ANTS IN TEXAS, BECAUSE IM SENDING YOU GUYS TEAR DROPS, THE WAY THIS ENGINE IS GOING? I THINK IM GOING TO SEE IF CHEVYGENE WILL COME TO WASHINGTON AND REBUILD THE ENGINE. I THINK GENE IS THE TOP DOG WHEN IT COMES TO ENGINES.

Donald, you better be careful you get Chevy Gene and Ray and JunkYardDog together you will not have enough car left to trade in on an old setting hen. They will start throwing all them Model T & A parts into the bay! (and all them fancy inserted rods too!)

HEY MACKIE WACKIE, YA GOT SOMETHING THERE, WHAT DA YA THINK ABOUT A CHEVY TUG BOAT, NOW THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING? WHY WE COULD HAVE TUGBOAT CRUISE INS?

Donny,My suit case is packed ,will one pair of shorts be enough????????Don't be too hard on Don's insert rods,When a crank is turned undersize they are a blessing for an old Chevrolet. When a babbited rod is made smaller to fit an under size crank they just add thicker babbit.It was already too thick on these older ones and will soon pound out and the rods will lossen up.Chevrolet never made under size rods for that reason.The after market rebabbited rods were often done with a soft babbit that only added to the problem.With the insert they make the shell thicker so the babbit bearing material is no thicker than a standard rod.Probably only 001 or .002"........

Donald, that sounds like something that would work, We would probably need a couple of hot water six engines for each boat ,Reckon?

Oh! I forgot are you Boeing folks still building them B-29 Superfortresses? a fine aeroplane if I do say so myself, we have one here in Midland. her name is Fifi!

YA, THAT SOUNDS GOOD MR MACK, WEES COULD GET CHEVY GENE TO KEEP THE ENGINE RUNNING AND YOUS TO STEER THE TUG AND I WOULD THROW THE ROPES OUT TO CHEVY CHIP AND RAY THE RADIO MAN SO THEY COULD SKI BEHIND THE TUG AND THE JUNKYARD DOG ROWING TO GET THE DAM THING UP TO SKIING SPEED. NOW THATS WHAT I CALL A FULL BOAT??????

Gene, I remember my Dad and uncle telling me never grnd a chevy crank unless it was built up and turned back to standard. My uncle said that the babbit on a good rod (49 to 53) should not be any thicker rhan a cigarette paper, that isn't much babbit.

Thats correct.When I did my '34 so many years ago I couldn't fing a new crank shaft so I had the original chrome plated and brought back to standard size.Used all new
chev. rods.Actually the "new" rods you got from Chev. were rebbitted by Chev. to new standards that is why there was a core charge on them in those days.After the "34 was on the road I found a new crank shaft and because I screwed up I had to rebore the engine so at that time I installed the new shaft as it was the "improved" 1936 version that has more counter weights.Kept the orig. for a spare.............Back in the '40's & '50's if a car came in with a rod out a engie machine co. came in with a portable crank shaft grinder and gring the throw in the car.If I remember correctly they couldn't get to #1 because of the crossmember.Then the trick was to get the piston down far enough to get the pin out so a new rod could be installed.On some cyls. they would break a little chunk out of the piston skirt to get it to clear the crank counter weights.At that time rod failures were caused by the pan oil line getting pluged up starving it of oil,a problem of low dertergent oils.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE DIFFERENT MATERIALS MECHANICS USE FOR SHIMMING?????

Don,
You began this thread with "NOT BEING A MECHANIC, THESE ARE THINGS I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FEEDBACK ON".

In my opinion, the depths you have gone in trying to solve your problem totally qualify you as, at least, an "Apprentice Mechanic". Crankshafts and bearing work are the heart of an engine and Wrench Apes who work on those parts are elevated to the level of "engine heart surgeon"!

Shims have been made of bacon rind, shoe leather, and beer can metal. My neighbor is a Korean War truck driver and has used them all. But the 'prefered' shim stock is a special laminated brass mostly offered by Federal-Mogul.

Federal-Mogul is the all-time guru for bearing inserts and their tech infomation of the 1940'-50's is super; if you can find it!

The 'prefered' method for solving a clearance problem with inserts is to buy new inserts to match the crankshaft rod bearing journals. The shimming of inserts is a "field mechanics" way of making up for problems with the crank. (AutoCar Trucks and Hercules Engines used shims with inserts on the new rod caps in the 1940's.) It works, and in your case you may be stuck with the method ,unless your crank measurements allow new inserts. Shims under an insert may move and block an oil passage and they do slightly effect a bearing "crush" and things like the "radial shape" of the oil clearance.

But if that's what your rebuilder did then you may have to repeat his process, or pull the crank. I would at least test the final clearance with the old "feel the drag" on the rod method that taps the bearing sideways with an 8oz hammer.

Shims to " test " a rod bearing clearance by hand feel can be made from an old feeler gauge or even a piece of paper. (paper usually mices-out at .002).

Don; you have really gotten to the heart of the age old question "Should I use babbitt or inserts on my old engine?". Maybe this will become a seperate thread because the trouble you have had diagnosing "insert" noise is classic.

Best of luck in solving your problem!

THANKS JOHNNY FOR ALL YOUR INPUT ON THESE PROBLEMS.THE FEDERAL MOGUL INSERTS ARE WHAT I HAVE AND I WILL TRY AND FIND OUT IF I CAN GET THE FEDERAL MOGUL LAMINATED SHIM MATERIAL. MY PROBLEM IS TO FIND A PLACE THAT WILL OIL GROVE THE INSERTS, ANY IDEAS? THANKS

Now there is a good Question.The original rod cap and main bearing cap shims were silver for the .001' and brass for the .002"I would assume that the silver were aluminum .Now as to shims placed under the inserts the laminated shim packages I have ,made by Perfect Circle, are silver so are they aluminum?????I have used aluminum foil off the roll as shim material with no problem.I'll have t go out and check it with a magnet.

Chevgene may have the latest version of shim alloy. My old ones are brass, but the folks who make them (Federal-Mogul, Perfect Circle,etc) all have their own proprietary "expensive' versions of alloys and all should be pretty much Ok for your application. I would avoid the homemade versions, even the ones that local machine shops are "rolling" themselves. The factory versions are compatable for heat transfer, ect and are worth the whopping $12-$16 they charge for the shim stock.

If you need a "shim" the real question is why?
Are your "inserts" already .040 and you need more metal to get closer to your crank?

Honestly, I feel your inserts should have come with a "groove" already cut into them along with the proper oil hole location. The "no-groove" inserts that I have seen are used on my later full-pressure 1954 truck 235.
The factory "grooved" inserts I last used were on a dipper/splash 1952 235 converted from babbitt. Grooved inserts usually come with the insert to babbitt conversion.

The other grooves I have seen were very deep-cut by the machinist who placed the insert, or did the babbitting, and I believe were done with the insert fitted into the rod?

Have you thought of getting "new" inserts from a reputable source that already have the proper groove cut into them? New rod bearings for a 235 (.030)start at around 47$ a set. Your 1932 206 may be harder-to-find and if .040 maybe OBS?

Some folks use:
Patricks 6 cylinder machine shop
http://www.patricksantiquecars.com
(Whenever I speak to Patrick he has been super helpful, he does a lot of hot-rods and 1937-62 stock Chevies, but he may be of help for your 32' because of his reputation for the stovebolt engines?)

Some folks use:
Egge
http://www.egge.com

Don, I would call a good babbitt/insert rebuilder/supplier like the ones above, OR call one of the VCCA vendors in G&D and direct your shim and groove problem to their expertise. {I have really high praise for Russ at Paul's Rod & Bearing (babbitt and inserts) Parkville Missouri, 816-587-4747}. It's really sounding like you need to protect your crankshaft from any further, or future damage, and you need a pro to do the work...and a pro to supply you with the parts.

{PS..perhaps I shouldn't even mention this, but there is an old 'art' of re-babbitting a shell insert and then precision reaming/boring it to perfectly fit a crank. Its used mostly for very expensive autos, with very rare parts. Cost can be about $60-80 on-up for each pair of bearing shells!}

LilJohnny,You are correct the inserts shoud have come with the oil groves.The problem is the 1932 has a rod journal size all to its self and who knows what the inserts were concocked from.The way I see the picture the crank was already turned to .040" and they tried to make do with what they had seeing they were down to the max.undersize.Even if a straight grove thru the center could be cut in it would be OK.That was the nice about old babbited rods, they could always be fit right down to the end by removing shims and when the shims were gone file the rod caps.I do believe Don's will work out OK with the shim behind the insert as these cars are driven a limited amoumt and don't really get the pounding a newer car would.(in other words lets hope he's a slow driver) Also hate to bring this up again but also hope it was the noise.But either way the rods would never have lasted with out an oil grove.

Should I babbitt...or should I insert? Well this thread points out a classic dilema when choosing one over the other.
Chevgene makes a good point as to why the rebuilder had to "shim" after the crank had reached its max grind of .040. And the point that the 1932 rod journals are non-standard anyway left the rebuilder with little choice but to use an aftermarket insert shell and shim it to get a closer oil clearance.
Once the choice of using an insert, with an old worn crank in a rare 32' engine was made, then it falls to special 'techniques' to compensate for clearances.
Things like under insert shimming, or re-babbittng insert shells, and even the dreaded fileing of rod caps become the only way to make the old engine run Ok.

Chevgene made an earlier point about why the rebuilder may have chose insert-versus-the-babbitt; and he made mention of the fact that sometimes the babbitt "thickness" was way too much and thus caused rapid wallowing and rod bearing wear. That was once very true BUT in the 1970's Federal-Mogul produced a super babbit alloy that no longer needs to be centrifugally "spun" to prevent "blow holes" on the bearing. It is very temperature sensitive during the pour, but can be poured very very thick. So thick that it does not need to even have the traditional shims on the rod caps! This "new babbitt alloy" is a formula of roughly 10% Antimony, 6% tin, and the remainder Lead with special traces of arsenic,zinc,iron etc.

The moral of this story is that when you use "inserts" the crankshaft must be ground to match the size of the insert. This takes the life away from the crankshaft. BUT makes it easy to replace the inserts as they wear. If you've got a good, little-worn or common crank, that's A-OK. When an insert fails it is usually fast and catastrophic! Once it fails the knock is almost instant and can be a severe blow to the crank.

If you have an old engine with a heavily worn crank then Babbit is the way to go! The crank often only needs a 'polishing' or very light grinding and the rod babbitt bearing is made to 'match' the crankshaft. This adds life to the crank, but the rods must be re-babbitted at around 30,000 miles. When a babbit bearing fails you have time to drive the car home. The damage to the crankshaft is very minimal. The babbit "pounds" but doesn't destroy your engine.

I hope Don solves his "knocking" by grooving the inserts and setting the proper oil clearance. Like Chevgene said , the old 1932 will have to be taken easy! If Don doesn't "lug" the motor, never lets the oil get dirty, or run the engine at high rpms it should hopefully last a reasonably long time.

oh...sorry about the length of my post, and my strong opinions, but this topic is one of the top- ten-all- time issues of preservation/restoration. So many old Chevies have been junked or hot rodded over the babbit bearing issue...

HI JOHNNY F AND CHEVGENE, THE INSERTS THAT I HAVE ARE FEDERAL MOGUL-NUMBER-

4517334
1615-AP
.040US
VF

THESE INSERTS DO NOT HAVE A OIL GROOVE IN THEM. IS THERE A WAY TO CROSS REFERENCE THIS NUMBER TO MAYBE ANOTHER BRAND THAT IS THE SAME SIZE AND HAS THE OIL GROVES IN THEM. THANKS DON I

My second AWARD to a threaded discussion!!!! This was truly outstanding... I hope someone here summarizes this and saves it for a future posting to our site.

In recognition, I have created a unique, one-of-a-kind picture which symbolizes Don's "Blindman's walk through the flowers while assessing an incredible number of directions on how to fix his in-jine! !!!

Signed copies will be available for a small handling fee. - not!

Again, an outstanding discussion which stayed true to the original query and engaged a lot of people and.... actually dug out a whole ton of good information on how to sluth your way to a better rebuilt engine!! Congrats to all who participated!!!!

Chevy - probably a stupid question - but why don't you just take your shells into a good machine shop and have them cut the grooves in them for you - with the new lazer guided computer controlled CNC machines - they can work wonders. Just a thought.

Sorry,I don't have a Federal Mogol catalog so can't help here.>>>>>>>>Just about to leave for a long week end.We (the Wisconsin Region) have an annual get-to -gether with the Viking Region and Packerland Region .Will be anxious to check back on Sunday to see the latest developments.

moedip...I agree 100% it can't be that difficult

The aluminum valve cover on my Mercedes was dripping oil in the back - changed gaskets 3 times - no difference. Was told by Mercedes my valve cover was warped - new one $200. I sent the cover to a machine shop and they took off 7 thou and levelled it. - $40 and no leak. If they can do that with a convoluted cast alumium valve cover - I am sure they can do the shells.

woops...post flooded and double posted

Don,
I dont have a cross-reference book either. One of the above mentioned rod repair shops may have the cross-reference or may be able to provide grooved inserts if you give them your rod dimensions.

A local machine shop may be able to do the 'grooving'. I dont know if its very costly and if the shells must be placed in a jig, or if they need to be matched while in the rod?

Here is a picture of a 235 1950's series of rod caps.
The 1952 cap on the left is a babbit rod converted many years ago to an insert. The rod cap on the right is a 1954 stock high pressure insert.

Note the (left) 1952 has the oil groove. The bottom oil hole is also offset for the dipper angle. My rough dimesions on this old insert are apx 1/16 total insert thickness, the groove is cut apx 1/32 deep, and 1/8 wide.

The cap on the (right) 1954 has no groove, is 3/16 thinner in overall width, and the oil hole is located near botton dead center.

hope this helps...
Picture of Bearing Inserts

ps.. use the "view" box on the pic to make it bigger .

Pss..Chevgene mentioned earlier that your 1932 had different oil holes in the rods. The purpose of the "groove" is to channel the oil to these holes. The holes then sling oil to the cylinder walls and somewhat to the wrist pin. So the shape of the groove MAY be different for your 1932 rod holes. The 1950's pics are just an example!

THANKS, YOU GUYS FOR ALL THE GOOD INFORMATION, I FIND IT AMAZING OUT HERE IN MY AREA, I HAVE CALLED SEVERAL MACHINE SHOPS AND NONE OF THEM HAVE A SET UP TO PUT OIL GROVES IN THE INSERTS? OR MAYBE THEY JUST DONT WANT TO BE BOTHERED?I THINK MY NEXT STEP IS TO GO TO DIFFERENT BEARING HOUSES AND SEE IF MAYBE THEY CAN COME UP WITH A OIL GROOVED BEARING????? THANKS DON

why not just take a dremel and cut them yourself, its not rocket science. just a thought.
chuck

THANKS CHUCK, THAT IS WHAT I WILL PROBABLY DO AS LAST RESORT IF I CANNOT FIND SOMEONE TO MACHINE THEM OUT. I KNOW THERE IS A SMALL MACHINE MADE THAT CUTS THE GROVES IN, BUT FINDING SOMEBODY WITH ONE IS,????????????? THE PROBLEM. THANKS

This topic DOES deserve something special. WOW

YEAH! Pore old Donald, he has a noise, asks a question or two, and L@@K at everything he got!!!!!
Hope we have helped Donald, You sure have a purty car

Even by Texas standards!!

WeLL, HERE IS THE LATEST THING ON THAT DARN ENGINE?? THE KNOCK WE GOT WAS QUITE LOUD IN NUMBER SIX CYLINDER, QUITE LOUD AND ALSO A SLIGHT KNOCK OUT OF NUMBER TWO CYLINDER.NUMBER SIX CYLINDER WAS QUITE LOUD WHEN WE TOOK A SCREWDRIVER AND SHORTED THE SPARKPLUG, AND WHEN WE TOOK THE SCREWDRIVER AWAY, THE NOISE WAS STILL THERE, BUT NOT AS LOUD. AS I SAID BEFORE WE DID THE SCREWDRIVER TEST ABOUT TEN TIMES AND THEN THE KNOCKING WENT COMPLETELY AWAY IN NUMBER SIX AND IN NUMBER TWO CYLINDER.???????THE ENGINE HAD RUN A GOOD TEN MINUTES AND HAD GOT HOT UP TO OPERATING TEMPERATURE, AND THATS WHEN THE KNOCKING WENT AWAY???? WELL TODAY AS I WAS UNDER THE CAR LOOKING AT THE BOTTOM SIDE OF THE ENGINE, I NOTICED THAT THE NUMBER SIX PISTON, TOUCHED THE CYLINDER WALL TIGHT ON ONE HALF OF THE PISTON AND ON THE OTHER HALF THERE IS A GAP ABOUT AS WIDE AS A PAPER MATCH, AND THE NUMBER TWO PISTON ALSO HAS A GAP ON ONE HALF, BUT NOT AS WIDE A GAP AS NUMBER SIX CYLINDER??? ALL THE OTHER PISTONS FIT GOOD ALL THE WAY AROUND THE CYLINDERS. NOW HERE IS THE THING, I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR SOME COMMENTS ABOUT THIS??AS I SAY, IM ALL THUMBS WHEN IT COMES TO ENGINES, BUT ITS GETTING MORE INTERESTING BY THE MINUTE, IF THIS KEEPS UP, ILL BE ABLE TO TIE BOTH SHOES. THANKS DON

Donald ,
You may want to go back and read some of the comments about Alumimun pistons from Chip and Chevy Nut.
Did you have all six cylinders sleeved to the same bore? If so then you got two bummer pistons, Eh?, Did the compression checks all show about the same values?.
I suppose since you know there is a problem you won't sleep too well till it is corrected or are you the type that knows what it is and won't have to worry about it, just take it easy, let her warm up before doing any drag raceing? :p

HEY MR MACK, THE ENGINE WAS SIXTY OVER WHEN I GOT IT, I HAD ALL SIX CYLINDERS RESLEEVED BACK TO STANDARD. BOUGHT ALUMINUM PISTONS FROM EGGE AND USED CAST IRON RINGS. A QUESTION I DO HAVE IS IF I SHIM THE ROD INSERTS TO .001, IS THAT TO TIGHT OF A CLEARANCE. RIGHT NOW THEY ARE AT .002 CLEARANCE. THANKS

You purchased your pistons from Egge? Well.....I think that you might have answered your own question. The input that I have received from many over the past 20 years or so, was that they would never purchase aluminum pistons from Egge again due to the problems that they have had with them. Some pistons were found to be cam ground and some were not, and many have complained about piston slap until the engine warms up....at which time the piston slap is gone. I have even talked to several machinists that refuse to use Egge pistons in anyone's engine. I have a feeling that possibly your knocking noise could be piston slap instead of your rods, and the noise going away when the engine reaches operating temperature is a classic example of some of Egge's aluminum pistons.

On the rod clearance, I think that .001" to .0015" should be fine.

Well, Donald, that is one thing I like about your Buddy JunkYardDog, he don't beat around the bush like some folks do, Eh?

I would believe .001 clearance would be plenty, But, beating around the bush, I never had a crank shaft left undersized, nor a block sleeved, and was able to get rods factory rebabbited. or inserts that were for the crank, your case of having a crank .040 under is a horse of a different size.!

Don; You have several suspicious characters.
1) No grooves where there should be grooves in your insert. I believe your 1932 oil path is from your vaned pump and thus to the rockers and also low psi to replenish the troughs, the dipper picks up from the trough and the oil that spins around your bearing slings thru 2 rod holes to the cylinder wall and also lubes the wrist pin. {1932 folks Please correct this as I'm really only sure of 1935 on up!}. No groove on the insert means very little oil on the cylinder walls and wrist pin when you ran the engine. Wrist pin sticking....or Piston slap...ring wear, cylinder wear? (maybe dipper splash vapor spray and assembly lube protected a little?)
2)The shim under the insert means an imperfect fit of the rod to crank. The fit may be non-concentric and thus it may be tighter on some crank spots than others. "Tradition" says .002 rod insert oil clearance in this type situation, BUT others who have done the job on your 32' probably know the real clearance that works.
3)Cam ground pistons from a dubious source, (and yes I have heard of Egge problems). Pistons may be thermally expanding wrong for your sleeve fit, or maybe just defective.
4)Your stuck with diagnosing these problems when it should really be the job of you rebuilder to service his work.

Your getting very close to pulling the head and micrometer-ing pistons, feeler gaging side wall fits, and dial testing bore tapers. When you have doubts of your rebuilders 'numbers' and your suppliers parts quality; then you GOT to get your own set of 'numbers' from good testing gages and a good mechanic (micrometer, feelers, compression etc.) to tell what's wrong.

If you run the motor hoping that the problem will go away with time.....who will pay the bill if the engine gets worse? Will your rebuilder be taking the chance, or will you? If you paid good money for the rebuilder to do a good job...then the tail-is-on-that-donkey.

Your reaching the limit of an "internet diagnosis" and maybe you need a second opinion from a person who is eyeballlin' and measuring your actual engine?

My experience is that a greater than 0.004 piston fit will give piston slap. That is the noise problem with the '31 FireTruck. I knew it when I put the "temporary" engine back together. It really should have been bored as the cylinders were a bit too worn. But since I was only going to run it until I got the original engine redone only put standard rings on the pistons, replaced two rods with bad babbit and put it back together. It still has the original cast iron pistons. It makes noise when ever idling. More so when hot than cold. Oil on cylinder walls is thicker when cold. Aluminum pistons could be the opposite. Less noise when piston expands on heating.

I only have put 1500+ miles on the slapping engine since putting it back together. Noise is about the same. I have a round tuit but not used it yet in getting the original rebuilt. It likely will run as long as I do.

In your case I would hold the builders feet to the fire. Pull the engine and get it fixed right. If he will not do it with verification from another experienced mechanic. Then have it done and send him the bill. The fitting of parts does not have anything to do with the fact that it is a '32. A 2002 requires the same attention to detail.

Good luck!

Well, Donald, old Bugle Boy Chipper is also one to not beat around the bush. I , myself would rather have a nice "Come to Jesus meeting" with the engine re-builder rather than "Hold his feet to the fire" What is the difference, you ask Grasshopper?
Well In a "CTJM" you start off with a question like " I guess you know your soal belongs to Jesus, don't you? then, "Well what do you have to say before I stick your footseys into the furnace?" Yeah!

Lil' Johnny and Chipper Dipper: Excellent input on Donald's problem, and I too agree that Donald needs to pull his engine and go through it again to check everything out to make sure that there are not any other snafu's within his engine.....and that includes checking out the Egge pistons as well. This should definitely be done by a qualified machinist that knows what he is doing with this type of older engine. Remember, Donald also had problems earlier with '31 rocker arms and the wrong push rods installed in his 1932 engine too, so this is a good indication that there could be more problems with his engine than meets the eye at this point. Like you, I also think that the individual responsible for most of Donald's grief over this engine should be the one to foot the bill for whatever repairs have to be accomplised to get his engine to the point where it is a quaility rebuild like he expected and paid for in the beginning.

JunkYardDog, them are my sentiments xactly! and without any of the antimosity that could have been shown, I guess you are mellowing in your maturity, sit back and quaff a cold Colorado koolaid, before you have one of them Senior Moments and forget what you went to the fridge for!

Mellowing in my maturity?? Not this Junkyard Dog. If it would have been my engine, this old mutt would have bitten the dude that built it right in the butt!! Now, do you call that mellowing out?? ha ha!

Yeah I do. but I understand some of the folks around here besides you are whut Us Texicans call "Kinkey!
:p

Isn't being "kinky" and a Texican the same thing??? That's okay though since no "kinky" Texican worked on old Donald's engine....just some Model T Dude from Washington, who calls himself a professional! Bow wow wow and wow!!

Well JunkYardDog , you are close, you don't HAVE to be a Texican to be Kinky, but it don't hurt, know whut I mean, (;- )

so junkyard dog a friend of mine in seattle is about to have his 47 engine done. Who is this guy that he should avoid? I wouldn't want him to have as bad a time as poor Don.

I knew if I left for a couple of days that I would miss out on a new development.First I would like to say we had a good time with the Viking And Packerland regions.Bob Hensel was there with his firetruck as usual and Bill Dirnberger came modern so I didn't need to repair his '51 as usual.There was another odd thing....While driving thru Manitowoc,Wi.,where we were staying we passed the Fedral-Mogol factory.I didn't realize that there was one in Wisconsin................Now back to Don's noise.As stated before I left I had doubts as to the noise coming from the rods.If the pistons have as much clearence as Don indicates that is diffenitly the problem.Like Skip said you could see .004" on an old engine and as the engine warms up the piston will expand and the noise dissapear.But in a "new" engine anything over .002",depending on skirt type,is way too much and not acceptable.Don't blame the pistons before the cylinder walls are measured because those cylinders may be too large.Either way this should have been discovered by the person rebuilding the engine during assembly.If the cyls. are too large new liners could be installed in those two to save the block and the complete engien reassembeled correctly with the rods groved. .........liljohn,I always thought the hole on the top of the rod was for upper cylinder lubrication too but Chevrolet says that it was more like an airbleed to allow yhe cold oil to enter the bearing and the air to escape on top. Thru 1934 there were two large holes.In 1935 when the oil lines were right in the bottom of the trough they went down to one small hole which was continued till the end.When they changed to the single center grove in 1937 they said that was better but then the little chamfers between cap and rod(but not too outer edge of rod) were added to carry the oil out to sides if bearing.Also the little pocket at the pick-up hole in side the bearing,introduced in 1935 is important.Many after-market rebabbited rods did not have these features.

Hey cdt: If you have any questions regarding the problems with Donald's 1932 engine, you might want to email him directly since he is the owner of the engine in question.

Enough is enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm the mechanic who rebuilt Don's engine, and he is leaving out several things, the most important of which is after receiving the engine from me, which I test ran, he removed the distributor and installed it with the timing off which resulted in numerous overheating episodes. Gee..... why do you think the pistons are colapsed??? I happen to know that the piston clearances were correct when I put the engine together, it is not the fault of Egge's pistons.

It appears that now's a good time to cap this discussion thread. Thanks to many of you, Don has a zillion ideas that he can pursue to find out the source of his engine noise. At this rate it'll take him another 2 or 3 months to check them all out!! :rolleyes:

This thread is hereby CLOSED.