Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 2
|
|
|
#229603 - 01/04/12 05:53 PM
Re: Old chevy?
[Re: IMFALCO]
|
Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 3247
Loc: Tennessee
|
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#229612 - 01/04/12 06:41 PM
Re: Old chevy?
[Re: Junkyard Dog]
|
Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 3247
Loc: Tennessee
|
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#229622 - 01/04/12 07:27 PM
Re: Old chevy?
[Re: ChevyGuru]
|
Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 3247
Loc: Tennessee
|
Edited by wawuzit (01/04/12 07:29 PM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#229634 - 01/04/12 08:23 PM
Re: Old chevy?
[Re: ChevyGuru]
|
Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 3247
Loc: Tennessee
|
Edited by wawuzit (01/04/12 08:25 PM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#229704 - 01/05/12 05:51 PM
Re: Old chevy?
[Re: Junkyard Dog]
|
Oil Can Mechanic
Registered: 01/13/02
Posts: 730
Loc: Sydney, Australia
|
There was a 1913 Baby Grand, it had a firewall similar to the Amesbury. It was basically a pre-production model. Somewhere I've got a photo of one, I'll see if I can find it.
BTW the Chevrolet radiator badges on the early H series had a different bow tie badge to the 15 models which had the bow tie that continues to 1927. And the first 490's had a tranfer only. Chris
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#229773 - 01/06/12 09:55 AM
Re: Old chevy?
[Re: chevguroo]
|
Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 1156
Loc: Medina, Ohio, USA
|
I was going to bite my tongue, but I can't hold back any longer. I must respectfully disagree with the other Chevy Guroo.
The very first, earliest Baby Grand or Royal Mail (i.e. any Model H) is a 1914 model.
This is how they were introduced, and sold. Yes, of course, the early production began in 1913, just as it is today where the next year's model goes into production in the prior calendar year.
If there was a pre-production or prototype vehicle, it is always considered to be a prototype of the production vehicle, and accordingly labeled the same as the introduction model year.
ALL original source documentation clearly shows the Model H introduced as a 1914 model in late summer of 1913. Sure, there are some that were titled as 1913 models in states or countries that titled according to the calendar instead of the actual model year back in the day. And in earlier years, titling requirements were much more lax - so Farmer Joe could walk in and say "Yep, I need a title for this here 1910 Chevy" - and sometimes they would issue it accordingly. (We could talk about all the 1942 vehicles that were put into cold storage at the beginning of WWII and were ultimately released and got titled as 1943 or 1944 vehicles.)
If someone can produce a document or sales flyer or the like, from 1913, that shows a car called a 1913 Model H, then I will eat my words. I have been looking at such documentation for many, many years, and have not seen it yet.
Original source documents from the time period in question are always the ultimate and correct authority - as they should be. Afterwards, it just becomes a case of compounding "he said she said" carrying forward information that is not accurate. After 100 years, this mis-information has multiplied and is everywhere. Including General Motors own archives - things that were printed in the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s that include abbreviated and incorrect facts. They also have the ORIGINAL documents in the archives that serve to correct the later inaccuracies, if a person is willing to dig and research and study the situation.
_________________________
Chevy Guru
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#229775 - 01/06/12 10:20 AM
Re: Old chevy?
[Re: ChevyGuru]
|
Backyard Mechanic
Registered: 07/20/03
Posts: 265
Loc: The New Forest, Hampshire, UK
|
In Canada, the earliest known [so far]advertisement for Little, and Chevrolet for that matter, was in the Winnipeg Tribune, 22 March 1913, p.9 which incidentally also showed that the Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited had a dealership at 81 Water Street, Winnipeg. The Canadian Motor Company Limited with ‘General Offices and Salesrooms Portage Avenue East’, advertised that they were Agents for Alco, Locomobile, Wolseley, Hudson, Chevrolet, Little, and Detroit Electric. It seems that by 1915 Model Hs were being imported. The announcements from June 1915 announced that Toronto would be the first Canadian assembly plant, but we know that onlky 490s were built there before production switched to Oshawa just before year's end. However as the 1916 Models were announced on 1st June, were these 1915 or 1916 Models technically? I have always thought that Oshawa started building 1916 Models in January 1916. In the UK, from my notes: The Motor 24 May 1914 carried a small item entitled “THE CHEVROLET CAR”, and published a photograph of “The Chevrolet Car”, and “The Chevrolet four-cylinder engine”. The car featured was in fact the Model H-4, 4-door Tourer.
The magazine stated that the Chevrolet car was a newcomer to the English market “from the other side of the ‘pond’”. The Chevrolet was being handled in the U.K. by The British Isles Motor Company Limited, 64 Carlton House, Regent Street, London W. A four-seater, fully equipped with electric lighting and starter, etc., was priced at £260, and a 2-seater [Model H-2], with a similar specification, was priced at £235..............
....An Advertisement also appeared in The Autocar, 30 May 1914 under the caption “Just what you want for your Summer Tour”!! [The Great War started 4 August 1914!]. The car illustrated in both references was a Model H-4 4-door Tourer. Prices were £260.0.0 for that car and £235.0.0. for the similarly-equipped Model H-2 which was on sale for £235.0.0. This included Speedometer, windscreen, electric starter and lights, but discounting the electric lighting/starter and generator and substituting Acetylene lamps saved £20.0.0. Also included were a full set of tools, a pump and a jack. Model H cars were built at the New York City plant, before the large car production was transferred over to Tarrytown. [TO CONFIRM: MODELS H, F, FA, AND D CAME FROM NEW YORK CITY PLANT, WITH ONLY THE MODEL 490 COMING FROM TARRYTOWN UNTIL New York City CLOSED IN LATE 1918]. The 1914 Model H was available in both left & right hand drive. Allowing for shipping delays, and handling possibly through L.E.P. Transport and Depository Limited, London, they may have been assembled in the Autumn of 1913. Further, a retrospective look at the four-cylinder Chevrolets in The Motor 1 November 1944 the only reference to Model types was made, with a photograph of a 1915 H-1 Roadster. As mentioned just now, the Great War started in August 1914, and was not, as was popularly thought, “over by Christmas”. In the Spring of 1915, the Government imposed a punitive 33.33% Import Duty on cars in order to pay for the War effor
Edited by Oracle (01/06/12 10:24 AM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#229784 - 01/06/12 11:52 AM
Re: Old chevy?
[Re: Oracle]
|
Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 1156
Loc: Medina, Ohio, USA
|
I'm not 100% sure I understand the question -
You said: "The announcements from June 1915 announced that Toronto would be the first Canadian assembly plant, but we know that only 490s were built there before production switched to Oshawa just before year's (1915) end. However as the 1916 Models were announced on 1st June (1915), were these 1915 or 1916 Models technically? I have always thought that Oshawa started building 1916 Models in January 1916." (Clarifications about what I assume you meant above added in bold)
If I am correctly interpreting the question, you are asking "were the Four-Nineties built in the second half of 1915 considered 1916 models?" The answer is "Yes" - the Four-Ninety introduction referred to them exclusively as 1916 models. There was never any vehicle properly called a "1915 Four-Ninety."
My records (Ken Kauffman) show Oshawa producing only 313 Four-Nineties during calendar 1915, all in the month of December 1915. There was a small dribble (single digits) from Flint and Tarrytown in the FIRST half of 1915 - prototypes, some with the smaller (Monroe?) engine that was ultimately not used in production - with Tarrytown starting a production line in late June 1915, building only 24 units that month; up to 133 in July 1915. In August 1915 Flint came on line. Total production of 1916 Four-Nineties in calendar year 1915 amounted to only 7,626 units - all touring/tourer bodied. Growth was then explosive during calendar 1916, with over 62,000 more added to the total; and St. Louis and Oakland CA plants up and running before the end of the year (1916).
So I am going on about Four-Nineties - or were you talking about Model H's?
_________________________
Chevy Guru
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#229975 - 01/08/12 06:39 AM
Re: Old chevy?
[Re: ChevyGuru]
|
Backyard Mechanic
Registered: 07/20/03
Posts: 265
Loc: The New Forest, Hampshire, UK
|
Records show that only 490s were built in Toronto: they used locally-built bodies by Watt Milling] and Ken and I agree that there were possibly 313 built with 47 additionally built in Oshawa in December 1915 and not the other way round. Either that or the 347 total for 1915 did not include Toronto figures. The Toronto plant (Chevrolet Motor Co of Canada Ltd) at the former Dominion Carriage Co Ltd building was owned by Durant and started assembling by late September; it was in operation by 7th October, but then in November it was agreed to transfer the business to Oshawa. Oshawa started 1916 H production in January 1916. Anyhow, thanks for the input: although the Canadian press references to the Toronto opertations did not mention any Model Years: The first known Canadian newspaper announcement was in an advertisement placed in The Toronto Star [though there may also have been on in the rival Globe] on Saturday 21 August 1915. The text stated:
“ANNOUNCEMENT” This Car To Be “Made In Canada” This model was placed on the American market on the first day of June, 1915. 47,611 cars were sold in 17 days. Mr. W.C. Durant, President of the Company, has purchased the Plant of the Dominion Carriage Co., Limited, West Toronto. His company take possession on October 1st, and hope to have cars ready for delivery in three months. The model 490 is a “Real Car” and may be seen in the Transportation Building at the Toronto Fair. Equipped with Speedometer, Electric Light and Starting System. Everything first-class and fully guaranteed. Price-$600.00 f.o.b. Toronto. Address all correspondence, CHEVROLET MOTOR COMPANY OF CANADA, LIMITED, TORONTO
The same advert appeared in the TORONTO WORLD of the same date
As an aside, Durant quoted Toronto as building 15,000 cars per year! I have the figures for 490s from Ken that we put on our website: http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/chevytalk/GMhistory/1912-30chevroletproduction.pdfThat info is way of date as regards the later cars, sorry!
Edited by Oracle (01/08/12 06:56 AM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#229977 - 01/08/12 06:50 AM
Re: Old chevy?
[Re: Oracle]
|
Backyard Mechanic
Registered: 07/20/03
Posts: 265
Loc: The New Forest, Hampshire, UK
|
I want to correct thne previous posting: In Australia: Adelaide Advertiser - Friday November 12, 1915 AN UP-TO-DATE CAR. The Chevrolet Motor Co. of New York is about to establish a plant in the Dominion of Canada, probably in Toronto. This move on their part will make their already very popular car widely known and sought after throughout the British Dominions. For all-round excellence and dependability the Chevrolet has already made a name for itself. In a recent strenuous competition the Chevrolet, achieved great distinction by defeating the world famed Mercedes racing car twice in succession, an achievement never before accomplished by an American car, and in the same week won three out of four events at the Illinois Motor club meeting in road trim, although competing against stripped and racing cars. A few days later it completed a 500 miles three day petrol consumption test with a greater mileage per gallon than any other competitor and a perfect road score. These facts certainly stamp the car as being among the very best. They have huge factories in both New York and Flint, Michigan, and their rapid advance into public favor renders the establishment of the factory in Canada a necessity. Samples of the new 1916 models have been unpacked by May’s Motor Works, Ltd., at Victoria-square, the South Australian agents, and intending buyers will be well advised to make an inspection.
This may be significant on two fronts: '1916 Models' and early exports to Australia. The Autocar of 11th December 1915 mentions new [1916] Models coming into the UK: The magazine commented that amongst American cars upon the English market, a new arrival was the Chevrolet, the British agency for which was in the hands of the C.M.C. Company, Daimler House, Paradise Street, Birmingham. This company would not supply the public direct, but through local agents. Three models of the Chevrolet cars were made, two of these having identical chassis, and all had the same type of engine and gearbox plant. There was an inexpensive type, known as the Model A, which had a four-seated body, duplex quart-elliptic springs, and straight pinion steering gear, with a transverse push-and-pull rod; this car, complete with electric light and an engine starting outfit, hood, screen, and 30 x 3 ½ in. tyres on all wheels was sold at £220. [This was the Model 490 3-door Tourer]. The only reference to Chevrolets in The Autocar cars sold here during the Great War was in the 8 January 1916 issue which contained a photograph of the 1916 Model "A", a side view of the standard 4-5 seater touring body. With complete equipment including electric lighting and engine starting, the car sold for £220. [£220 equalled $1074 at the 1914 exchange rate or $975 at the 1919 exchange. This would be about twice the U.S. $550 price f.o.b. Flint for the electric starter/lights model. Ken says that the freight to California was about a $100 with Freight to New York about $50, so the Tarrytown cost would be about $600. Allowing about $150 for ocean boxing and shipment, gives about a $750 at-the-dock price plus 1/3 tax, put the final price at $1000 list price. Figured at dealer cost of 20% discount would put cost with tax at $852 which when figured at a 25% margin would be $1065].
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#230333 - 01/10/12 01:37 PM
Re: Old chevy?
[Re: Oracle]
|
Oil Can Mechanic
Registered: 01/13/02
Posts: 730
Loc: Sydney, Australia
|
In Australia, we had quite a few Little's imported as early as 1912. Quite a few 1914 RM's and BG's (sold here in 1915 as 14 models), there is no eveidence of Amesburys I have a few early Aus. adverts from 1915 related to dealers in at least 3 states (of our 6 states) including a 1915 ad from May's Motors Adelaide for BG's We also had F series Chevs that were imported. Chris
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
12/16/2001
|
|
|
10 registered (kwchevy1940, kevin47, ab_buff, buggymangp, ruscar, Cleon Eck, karl31, Beamer, the39, Chip),
36
Guests and
2
Spiders online. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
10744 Members
59 Forums
38444 Topics
242085 Posts
Max Online: 209 @ 05/12/11 08:44 PM
|
|
In your
|
|
|