I know there's no right or wrong answer to this, and it really comes down to personal preference and money. But I thought some of you probably faced this before and would appreciate some feedback:

My '36 Chevy Master is almost ready for installation of the interior. Inside is completely stripped, doors are off for wood re-build, floor is de-rusted and painted with POR-15, and I have a new Hampton Coach complete interior kit ready to go. My question is, since I've gone this far, why not pull the body from the frame and have it stripped and painted?
I don't necessarily want an award winning show car, but certainly want to eventually bring it back to it's original condition.

The body is in great shape (no rust-through, no dents). The paint is fair to good. The original black paint was repainted a navy metallic blue, and it's shiny, and pretty decent quality paint. But they didn't take it down to bare metal, and there are lots of bubbles and paint chips. A couple are as large as 4 inches across. What I plan to do is some touch-up for now. The weather is getting nice and I want to enjoy driving it.

But I've read that if you're going to do it right, pull the body from the frame, paint fenders, doors, hood, trunk separately. And do it before putting in new upholstery. Do you think it's possible for a good paint shop to do a quality job without removing the interior and pulling the body if I decide to paint later? Or, is it reasonable for me to remove the interior later without ruining it? Good idea or bad idea?

Finally, anybody have an idea what a good prime and paint should cost if I strip the old paint myself and there's no body work to do? This will probably make the final decision for me. I've talked with a custom painter in Pennsylvania who does lots of show cars and his price was $10K. He'll drop $1K if I strip it myself. I assume that's the top end. Any idea what it would cost if I'm somewhere between this guy and Maaco? Thanks for any input you can provide.

My suggestion would be to leave the body on the frame...Due to the wood construction the body framing could loosen up more by removing by removing it from the frame causing various misalignment ptoblems.I would remove the fenders, hood etc when it is repainted.

..You did mention Maaco, I have seen fairly decent paint jobs from them on other VCCA members' old cars (late 20s and early 30s) after all you don't want a paint job like you see on highly modified customized cars...Do you? sometimes they don't quite match the paint color that was requested.

This should confuse you even more, but my vote is to pull the body and do your restoration correctly. Also, I would get rid of the POR-15 too!

On the paint, the $10,000 price quoted you is about right and it is not on the high end either. In my neck of the woods quality paint work on full restorations runs between $8,000 and $20,000, depending upon what type of paint job you want. On the Maaco paint, if you want your wheelbarrow painted then take it to them, otherwise do a quality paint job. Your old car will love you for it!!

agree with the dawg. mike

Since you have gone this far it would be easier and cheaper (less stuff to mask off or protect from overspray) to repaint it now.

Also I think you would regret it later, you said "...there are lots of bubbles and paint chips. A couple are as large as 4 inches across." this means that you have some rust starting and a 'touch-up' might or might not get all of it.

Once you start down the path of restoring a car you tend to want to keep doing it right after spending that much time and money on the project. At least this is what happens to me when I start on one...

Preping the car for paint yourself is a cost saver, but it is a lot of work...I have also seen people do this and if they don't know what they are doing they can sand dips and waves into the surface. Don't forget to follow the safety rules when sanding or blasting also.

Others on this site with a lot more experience and knowledge can advise you about what type of paint or system to use. I have been told that on an older car like yours you should not use a clear coat over the color coat, it looks closer to the original paint w/o the clear.

Check out the painter and some of the cars he has painted, talk with some of his past customers...I have learned this lesson the hard (and costly) way.

Good luck with the car and happy motoring.

JunkYardDog,
What is it that you don't like about the POR-15, as long as the heavy rust has been removed beforehand?
Randy

There is nothing wrong with POR products that can't be solved by placing them is a hazard waste receptical. If they have a purpose in the shop, I haven't found it.

Raymondo about said it all! I place PRO-15 right down there with Rust-Oleum! Would never use either product.

POR is a single component polyurethane. Being moisture cured it has some advantages over two stage and other single stage paints. It is much better than Rustoleum and other paints intended to cover metal that is oil/grease free but may still have some hydrated iron oxide (rust) present. If top coated while still sticky with a good quality enamel gives a good chip and UV resistant surface. It is not as using a good as a clean, high surface area (blasting or etching or both) with a two component urethane or epoxy on a frame or other mechanical components but much better than several alternatives. The early formula did not have good UV resistance which has been improved in the later formula.

I don't understand why some people seem to have a prejudice against POR 15. If used properly it can be a good product for some applications.

I don't really have a prejudice against POR-15. For tarring a roof on a house I think that it's great! Beyond that, anyone that wants a professional high quality job wouldn't use the stuff.

At one of my senior moments I purchased a 1915 F * * D Runabout that had been coated on the bottom with POR. It had the same look as a vehicle that had been painted with a mop. I tried to remove the stuff and it was too much of a challenge. Sold the rig to keep from seeing it in the shop.

I've actually had good experience with POR-15 so far. I admit that the first time I used it on the floor of the trunk, it looked great at first, certainly better than my first try with (Ugh) Rustoleum. But I left the trunk open in the sun, and I wasn't using the UV protected variety. It started to blister badly. After resanding it, and coating it with the UV protectant version of POR, the finish came out beautifully and stayed that way. I also had great luck painting the outside of the gas tank with the non-UV type. It resulted in a mirror-like finish. These were all clean, nearly rust-free surfaces that were positioned flat. It does tend to run, so you have to catch them quickly.

From my limited experience with it, I'm guessing that since it's moisture cured, both humidity and temperature can greatly affect how fast/slow it dries, and hence the quality of the final finish. I had a much better finish when it dried more slowly in a humidity-temperature controlled shop. Also, since it's put on with a brush, if it dries too fast, you'll leave lots of brush lines. I decided to use it on areas that are not easily visible (like under the carpet), because I thought the durability would be a good thing. If it doesn't come out right though, it's very tough to remove.
Randy

Quote:"If used properly it can be a good product for some applications"

I agree with Chipper.

You folks now have me worried and so I have a few questions.

First let me say that I had my 35 Master frame steel-grit blasted. Then I pickled it with phospohoric acid, rinsed it with lots of water and dried it using a hot air gun to get all of the moisture out of the joints. Then I appied POR-15, using a brush. It did not leave noticable brush marks. It has a satin finish. This was all a year ago. The chassis is now all together and I am working on the body.

The questions:
How long ago was the formulation changed to handle UV?
Is UV a concern for the frame?
Have any of you used the "primer" and finish satin black paint offered by the same company to coat POR-15 that has cured?

Jim,I've heard this discussion many times,I used the POR-15 primer and top coat although I did spray both and it still looks real good.I think Eastwood sold me on the product?I was looking for durability and I think it was accomplished,chef-

Chef, I doubt that Eastwood sold you the POR15. They have their own rust-encapulation mix. I do know you don't want to get POR15 on anything you don't want it to stay on! I know several really knowledgeable restorers that like it and they are also guys I highly respect the work they do. It must be used in a different manner than regular enamel or epoxy paints.

POR15 has a web site, and if anyone wants more info than "...it is a hazardous waste" and it "....has no place in the shop." then maybe you should buy some or visit the site.

I suppose I should add,I used all their preparation products also as stated in the direction and on their site"4-step process"including their
U-V resistant top coat,chef-

Cool! If you like the stuff and you enjoy using it, then stick with it. Myself I won't use POR-15 on anything. I have a friend of mine that is a professional body man and the cars that he turns out are extremely high quality, and his paint jobs reflect his art as well. At any rate, he won't even allow POR-15 in his shop. I guess it's all a matter of taste, preference, and the type of quality that you want.

As long as we're picking sides I'll vote for using POR-15. I'm a hobbyist, not a professional restorer and I've used it on my '35 with good results in areas where it isn't practical or feasible to grit blast parts to a completely rust-free condition. I used it on my chassis and where there was rust it holds up well. I think it may need an oxidized or roughened finish to adhere well.
Just don't get it on your skin or parts where you don't want paint! It will be on them for a very long time.

You have just pinpointed one of the major objections to POR-15.

Very true....Ray. I also understand POR15 has a six month max shelf life, won't thin with anything but the expensive POR15 thinner,that once a can is opened and the stuff gets in the valley of the can and the lid is replace it is glued on forever, you have to punch a hole in the lid to get any more out. Other than a bunch of freaky things it is fine!

I saw a picture of a fine old Chevrolet that had the door open (new interior) when the owner dropped a full 1 gallon can of black POR15 a foot from the door, the can lid popped off and POR15 completely sprayed and ruined the interior of the 32. NOTHING would even touch the stuff, it completely ruined the guy's Day, Week, month and a couple of years, not to mention his hair skin and clothes!

How about powdercoating the frame instead of Por or other paint?

BigBob, That is my idea, I have seen a 55 done with powder coat and it looks great. I wonder about the average restoration attempt without removing the body from the chassis, that is where POR15 seems to be seeing a lot of use, body on attempts.I was doing my 51 belair that way, sandblasted everything that was reachable, now after several years of messing around I will do a body off or sell the thang.....

If I knew then what I know now, I think I would spend the extra bucks and powder coat Sweetie Pie\'s frame.

That is one nice car!

Thanks, Ray
She sports the radio you so nicely restored.

Being involved with a shop that does restoration on 1955-57 Chevys.,naturally the first preference is powder coating, but some owners will not ante up the money for powder coating. In that case Por 15 is normally used on the frame after sandblasting and it is normally sprayed on. This is about the only place it is used except in some instances where a minor restoration is done and the body is not removed and Por 15 is used on the bottom of the floor pan. As Mr Mack stated once the can is opened it has a very short life. We have found that if you cover the can with Saran wrap before installing the lid it helps if you need to re-open the can. As stated if you get it on your skin be prepaired to wear it off. Our overall experience has been satisfactory.
Just another opinion,
dandyd

Powder coating is certainly the way to go for that 'accurate' restoration of a vintage Chevrolet. Yep, powder coating, just like they came from the factory ! :rolleyes:

The basic idea of POR-15 is to prevent rust. If you don't remove the body from the frame so that the entire frame area can be coated with this stuff, then what good is it when only part of the surface is coated with POR-15 and not the entire area? Rust will still form in places that have not been coated. Sounds like a waste of time if the entire frame or if all of the body pans are not coated to prevent rust as intended.

JunkYardDog, I think that the bodyfloor pans and frames that are rusty but not rusted thru can be separated enough, without removing the body completely from the frame, to get the POR15 to coat both surfaces and protected just by wire brushing the surfaces, without having to sandblast or de rust. The idea is to "Paint Over Rust" and encapsulate it so that O2 won't cause further rusting, does it work? ...Maybe!

Again, we are talking about doing a through job. If you can raise the body high enough to get your hand in there with a paint brush, or to use a wire brush, then the body can be removed totally. It is just as much work to raise the body two inches as it is to remove it. Just painting the exposed rusted areas that you can see with POR-15 is not going to protect the most critical areas, i.e. unexposed body floor pans, the tops of cross members and the tops of the frame side rails between the body and the frame where the rust occurs. Those are the areas that gather the most rust.

POR-15 is intended to be used to prevent rust, therefore, it should be used as intended, and that would be to protect the critical areas. Otherwise, all of the time involved and the money spent for the stuff is wasted, since the critical areas are going to continue to rust if they are not coated.

Powder coating is certainly the way to go for the "Accurate" restoration of a vintage Chevrolet. Yep, powder coating just like they came from the factory! It is sure hard to post something on this forum without someone taking exception to it! Maybe I made a poor choice of words when I used the word "Restoration". Perhaps I should have used the word "Modification" since this shop after several years in business has never been approached to restore a vintage Chevrolet to its "Accurate" condition just like it came from the factory. To stay in business you build the vehicle the way the customer requests it to be built!

Hey Bowtie Bob,

How did the frames come from the factory in 1940, and can that process be duplicated today? Would points be deducted for powder coating the frame?

The frames came from the factory in 1940 exactly as they come from the factory today.Look at a new truck (as cars no longer have frames).The metal was not prepared in any way.After frame was riveted together a black coating was applied (enamel of some low cost variety??).Did not have a real high gloss and was often refered to as chassis black.Surface was rough as it was not sanded, not primed. and not meant to last and above all not for show.Most frames today are over restored.Fortunatly VCCA dosen't deduct for an over restored frame.

"Fortunatly VCCA doesn't deduct for an over restored frame."

I think that Roadster32 will totally disagree with the above statement because his frame and body on his beautiful 1932 roadster were deducted 15 points (as I remember)at a VCCA meet for being "over restored".

On the frames, back in the early 1930's the frames were dipped in black Japan enamel......which was some pretty tuff stuff, and the shine was a gloss. In contrast, on my brand new 1977 Monte Carlo (it was still new the day I sold it back in 1994 with 911 original miles) the frame was painted with an almost flat black sticky substance. You could wipe it off with cleaning solvent and the bare metal was exposed underneath.

My '57 had a dealer applied spray coating of a tar like rust proofing (undercoating) when purchased in '57.

This stuff was on the frame and under the fenders and floorpans and even on the underside of the hood. The stuff was a bear to get off but all of the metal under it was perfect; so I was glad the original owner had put it there.

So my question; is there something that the dealer applied then to the underside of the cars that could still be applied today and keep the car original for judging??

It would be "as delivered" to the buyer from the dealership.

My '51 Chevy has some similar undercoating on the frame and etc. Under the lingings in the trunk and under the hood are large insulation panels that were glued in place. The panels look something like the modern day insulation batts that you would install in the walls of a house. Both the undercoating and the insulation material in the trunk and under the hood were installed by the dealer when the car was new.

You folks have convinced me I did the right thing, as I used the acid prep sold by the POR-15 people and the frame looks like it probably did when it came from the factory a satin finish - not real shiny or real dull. It has not been ground or filled to be perfectly smooth - probably as it came from the factory. It has been my goal, in restoring my 35 Master, to have everthing LOOK as correct as possible. And by correct, I mean to have it look as it came from the factory but to use materials and techniques to have the result last a lot longer than the inexpensive materials that were used to produce this inexpensive car.

No one answered my questions, however:
When was the formulation changed to be more resistive to UV. Someone reported that it was changed and thus must have info about when. I want to know if what I bought is UV resistant.

Has anyone succesfully used the top coat "chassis black" sold by the POR-15 people?

The comment that worried me initially was that it blistered.

I question the recommendation to powder coat a frame. There was a discussion of painting wheels a while back that concluded that powder coating them was not such a good idea because of stone chipping. Of course if the vehicle is only driven out of a trailer at a meet and back into the trailer, chipping would not be a problem. But driving the car in a ride could be.

Many dudes that I know powder coat their frames and they drive their cars. The frames look great and they are pretty much chip resistant. And, I have some friends that have trailer queen show cars, and they also powdercoat their frames as well. This is becoming more and more of a practice since the powder coating not only looks great for a very long time, but it is pretty much resilient to road conditions and etc.

I powdercoated all six wire spoke wheels on my 32 and have driven the car on different club tours and outings with out getting any chips on them. I think It Is difficult to chip the powdercoating. I know others who have powdercoated wheels on their tri- five cars and none of them have had a chipping problem. Some of the cars are driven thousands of miles each year. Getting the right color In powdercoating was a big problem not to long ago, But now the colors you can get, Is that you can almost come up with any color you want.

JunkYardDog the quote may be true with a large restoration shop with overhead hoists and plenty of room to lift the body of the chassis, however it is possible to raise the body a few inches in a home single car garage and do a reasonably good job of protecting the floor pans and chassis with a floor jack and a set of jack stands, it seems to me, that market is where POR15 is primarly aimed.I suspect many "Amatuer Restorations" are done this way.

"reasonably good job".

That's the whole thing.....if you are going to go through all of the hard work to raise the body a few inches to do a "reasonably good job", then why not do it right in the first place?

Even a large body like the one on my '69 Impala can be removed from the frame in a home garage without large restoration shop equipment.

..And where are you going to put the durned body? in the bathtub?...why do a Reasonable good job?..because a do it right in the first place will never get done, the kid has to get this thing on the road, got to drive it to work!..it is all about the time and the money , the money, the money!
Are you saying if you can't do a professional 100% restoration, then just don't do anything? I bet that the restoration vendors sell almost as much sanding, grinding and buffing materials that fit on a 3/8" drill motor as for a 8" Baldor pedestal shop machine.

It takes just almost just as long to raise the body a few inches as it does to remove it. Where will you put the body? Well.....I don't know about you, but those of us that have a garage put it on jack stands next to the frame! Hum......maybe they don't have garages in Texas??? ha ha!

Also, in this case it doesn't take coating the frame that much longer, nor does it cost any more to do it right as it does to do it half-way.

Your right again everyone that wants to "fix up an old car" don't have a nice garage, And in West Texas it is a chore finding a shade tree over three feet tall.

How long was your last complete restoration from start to finish? includeing waiting on parts, etc. etc.

You are missing the point. We are talking about coating the frame and underbody panels with POR-15 or whatever, and not a complete restoration. Only coating the frame in the areas that are visible will not help the critical rusty areas between the body and the fame unless they are coated as well. You mentioned just raising the body a little to clean and coat the frame and to gain access to the critical areas that cannot be seen. I am suggesting that if you go to all of that work to raise the body a little, then you just might as well take the body off, totally clean the frame to bare metal and then coat it, and the critical areas, with your top coat of choice. Then, when completed, the body can be set back on the frame and the coating job is done correctly. That has absolutely nothing to do with a complete 100% restoration. That, then, would be up to the car owner if he wants to go any further with the project.

The point is, by useing POR15 and painting over the rust there is no need to remove the body from the frame, or to grind, sand or sandblast, use all those harsh environmentally harmful chemicals and it can be done right in your garage with a few hand tools! ....JunkYardDog, Won't you just send me your credit card number right now and I will have your order of POR15 on the way tonight! You can be driving your nice shiny rustbucket Honda Civic next week!

He!He!, Do you think I should start a training program for potential POR15 salesmen?

Ha ha! Well....let's see if I understand this correctly. The idea of POR-15 is to stop rust therefore it is okay to only coat the rusted areas that you can see with this stuff and not worry about the critical areas that you can't see or get to, i.e. like the tops of the frame rails for example. So then, once the visible part of the fame is coated with the POR-15, and everything looks cool, the critical areas, that were not coated because the body was still on the frame, are allowed to continue to rust. Wow.....what a concept! Now I've got it!! ha ha! I kill me!

Naw..........you don't need to send me any POR-15 because this old mutt doesn't have any Jap stuff, so thanks for your offer. And besides, they don't give dogs credit cards anyway!

"Do you think I should start a training program for potential POR15 salesmen?" Absolutely!!! You would be a pro at it!!! ha ha!

JimG,
According to the POR-15 website frequently asked questions: WILL THE SUN DESTROY MY POR-15 COATING IF I DON'T TOPCOAT IT?
No, your POR-15 protection will remain, but the sun will change its appearance cosmetically. That's why we recommend you topcoat it.
I'm not sure what they mean by "change its appearance cosmetically", but I describe it as blistering if left in direct sunlight. Could have been a chemical reaction to something I used to prep the surface, but I didn't want to repeat the mistake, and have topcoated everything since then. I don't know when they changed to UV resistant topcoats. It was available a year ago when I bought it.
Regarding lifting the body a few inches, I'm warming up to that idea. My wife has a greedy issue about taking up the other half of our two car garage.
Randy

Thanks for the encouragement.

You folks are all very entertaining, even when you are just haggeling.

I have used black Por-15 to touch up the trailer hitch on my modern car.The black turned gray where the sun contacted it..other than that the rust has not spread and the coating is holding up well for a few years now.

Hey JunkYardDog, are you OK? I was afraid you was out there with your doghouse raised up a couple of feet, painting the underneath with POR15 and got your paws covered with that black stuff and got stuck to the doghouse! Hello!

Sure I'm okay! Absolutely doing fine! And, one reason why I am doing fine is because I don't use POR-15 with all of it's disadvantages like getting it on your skin (in my case fur), or breathing the toxic stuff and etc. Won't allow it anywhere near my doghouse!! Yep, everything is cool here! Bow Wow!

Well , JunkYardDog I am glad you are clean (relatively, haven't been chaseing any polecats?) and C@@L!