After dropping the transmission, to change the clutch in my '36 Master, I decided to do an overhaul on the WM transmission. Definitely found some gears that were well worn, especially the 1st and reverse gear, and reverse idler gear. Are there other parts that I should change while I'm doing the overhaul, even though they look ok? For example, front and rear bearings, synchronizing drum, shafts??
Also, I see in the shop manual that there were two 3-speed transmissions available: the WM series, and a synchro-mesh. Does anyone know what difference there is in performance of these two transmissions? Are any of the parts interchangeable? The only parts I have found (Obsolete Chevy Parts) have part numbers for the synchro-mesh. Thanks, guys rnudo@kumc.edu .
Randy

They are to different transmissions. I have some new parts for either maybe I can help. I dont think much of anything interchanges.

Thanks for the info, chevy b. The parts that are the worst are the reverse idler gear (part # 476299) and the 1st/reverse gear (part # 476191). The syncronizing drum should probably be replaced also, possibly only the ring. Part numbers are 592776 and 476300, but one of these numbers might be for the complete drum assembly, which I'd prefer if available.
My other option that I'm considering is to find a complete synchro-mesh transmission if it performs significantly better than the WM. Any ideas on this?
Randy
rnudo@kumc.edu

If you find a used transmission it must be from a 1936 Master-will need it to be complete including lever.The WM trans. used the same gears as a F*%d-except the front and rear shafts-main drive gear and main shaft.It was a Warner unit.

That's great! The parts that I wasn't able to locate (e.g., reverse idler gear) are available through the F*%d parts dealers. Reverse idler gear looks identical at Mac's Antique Auto Parts (same number of teeth, straight teeth, etc.). I may have her back on the road for the 4th of July after all.

You might also check out Vintage Auto Parts, Inc on line catalog - http://www.vapinc.com - They show a fairly complete listing of 1936 Standard and Master Transmission Parts
Herb

Yes, I even called Vintage Auto Parts, but they only seem to have the gears for the synchromesh transmission in the catalog. They were supposed to do a search of their inventory, but that was last week and they haven't called back. Early F%#d V8 had all the parts I needed. The non-synchromesh Chevrolet transmission used many of the same gears as the F%#d 3-speed transmission, as Chevgene said. Early F%#d V8 had the reverse idler gear, idler gear shaft, countershaft, synchronizer hub with new brass rings, springs and ball bearings. Shipped the same day too.

Here is a little more info on the two transmissions.

From 4-23-35 thru 5-11-35 the Toledo Transmission Plant was on strike. Chevrolet contracted with Warner as a "stop gap" and started using the "WM" transmissions in late '35 Masters and early '36's.

The shift lever is located further forward on the WM, so if you swap it out with a Toledo unit you will need to get the correct floor inspection cover and floor mat. The WM also uses a different bell housing. The shifting rods slid out of the front of the WM transmission and extend into the bell housing holes.

The ratios are also different, the WM has a lower ratio (better on hills):

Toledo is R = 3.40:1, 1st = 2.02:1, 2nd = 1.70:1 and 3rd is direct.

WM is R = 3.38:1, 1st = 2.82:1, 2nd = 1.60:1 and 3rd is direct.

Slight error-1st gear in Chevrolet built Toledo is 3.02

Mike,
Maybe that's why the taupe floor mat from Hampton doesn't fit my WM shifter! By the way, does anyone make the mat anymore? Last I checked with Hampton they couldn't get these anymore.

Regarding the '35 Toledo strike, it is chronicled in a book called Not Automatic: Women and the Left in the Forging of the Auto Workers' Union by Sol Dollinger and Genora Johnson Dollinger. I haven't read it, but I'm curious enough now to pick up a copy.

Mike, My 1929-39 parts book lists the same bell housing for all 1935-36 Masters.Could the WM housing be used for the Chevrolet Toledo trans. allowing parts to stock only one unit?

The "higher ratios " would be great in my '34.Would get 25 MPH out of 1st gear rather than 23 MPH and 46 MPH out of 2nd.Wow.....I could see where it would improve 2nd gear for hill climbing as slightly higher speeds could be maintained.Was surprised a couple of years ago.I noticed the higher shift tower in a members '35.Was curious to hear if the WM sounded like a Chevrolet unit in 1st and 2nd gears.Really couldn't hear much difference.

I received my F%$d transmission parts from Early F%$d V8 today. I can verify that the reverse idler gear, idler shaft, synchronizer hub, and front bearing are identical to the WM parts. Unfortunately the counter shaft is different. Although it's the same length, it's 3/4" diameter and mine is 7/8" diameter. My parts book says that the 3/4" shaft was used on the '35 WM transmission, and the 7/8" shaft was used on the '36 WM. Not an expensive mistake, but it looks like only some parts are interchangeable.

IF WM changed it for Chevrolet it must have been changes for all the transmission applications.Would check if they have a larger one for brand F.

According to Early F$%d V8, brand F used the 3/4" shaft at least through 1948. They didn't have a 7/8" shaft.

Must have saved the best for Chevrolet

Note that the heavy duty 3 speed Warner optional truck trans from 1954 and up used a 7/8" shaft-2 1/2" long.Also the Corvette Warner 4 speeds used a 7/8" shaft but 5 1/8" long.

No doubt! FYI, this is the shaft for the cluster gear and it's 8 9/64" long.

The truck heavy duty 3 speed and a Corvette type 4 speed use the same cluster shaft.Its 7/8" dia. and 9 7/16" long....probably available thru Vette suppliers etc..and could be cut down???

Hey Gene...thanks for catching my typo. You are correct it should have read 3.02.

The Hampton Coach floor mats were made by Dale Miller (I believe) and he is no longer doing them. The WM mats were never done to my knowledge.

The WM bell housing is not the same as the Toledo one. I can't explain why the parts books left them out (not in my 29-36 book either). Maybe Chevrolet figured if you needed a bell housing you had biger problems and they would convert you back to a Toledo trans set-up. I need to take some measurements to see if the Toledo trans will fit a WM bell housing (that might work). I know a WM trans won't work on a Toledo bell housing. The shift shafts will strike the back of the bell housing as they exit the top cover making it so you can't shift.

I got too impatient to get the tranny back together, so I decided the main shaft wasn't so bad. Of course, I bought a gasket set that also happens to be for the Toledo transmission. The only one that's interchangeable is the gasket for the front bearing retainer. It doesn't look like anyone sells the WM gasket set. Anybody have any leads? The universal gasket material sold by the local parts stores is cork, and I think it will be a little too thick. Does anyone sell the "paper" gaskets as universal material?

My local parts stores sells rolls of paper gasket material.Even available in more than one thickness.The last I bought was from Checkers Auto Parts.

Thanks. I'll try a few other local parts stores. Advance Auto Parts has it online, but not in the local store. Regarding the Toledo vs. WM housings, my 1929-1942 master parts book lists several transmission cases for 1935-1936 3-speed. Unless stated otherwise, I think these include the plugs. Also, unless stated otherwise, I think they refer to the Toledo synchromesh transmission:
590531 1932-36 B, CA, CB, DB, EB, FB
590697 1934-36 DA, EA, ED, FA, FD
476017 1935 (less plugs; 3/4" countershaft holes; WM) EA, ED
592698 1936 (less plugs; 7/8" countershaft holes; WM) FA, FD
601993 1935-36 EC, FC

So in '35 and '36, one of two 3-speed transmissions were used on standards and masters. Since the F%$d parts that I bought included the 3/4" shaft, it looks like they used the same WM transmission that Chevy used in '35.
Randy

The 1933-36 Standard transmission was a light weight non-syncronized unit.No parts interchanged.The 1937-1965 3 speed (many improvments made during that time) was an entirely new transmission, much lighter in weight than the 1932-36 Master, and had a better syncronizer that would allow much faster shifts.There were two versions of the original unit in 1932.The first design used a straight cut gear for 2nd speed making it very noisey.The late version was described as being silent in 2nd-but that was not completely true-but it was a great improvement.

OK. I won't expect my rebuilt transmission to work like one from the 60's, even with a new synchronizer hub. I'll post an update when I get it back in the car this weekend and see how she runs.
Randy

Just one more note to document incompatibilities for anyone doing this in the future: The universal joint is also different. I found a NOS U-joint for a '36 Master on ebay, but it's different. My U-joint that fits on the WM transmission has a gear that drives the worm gear for the speedometer cable. The front plate of the U-joint also has a slightly larger opening to accomodate the gear. I was able to use the NOS bushings, rear plate with my old U-joint gear and front plate.

My 1929-40 parts book list # 600174 as fitting 1934-36 Masters WITH A NOTATION it is also used with transmissions which have serial numbers commencing with WM --- lists nothing else for WM.......could the Ebay U joint have been for something else -in error?...Also the front and rear yokes are listed for all '34-'36 with no exceptions.
The speedometer drive gear is pressed unto the front U joint yoke on all 1934-36 transmissions.

Thanks. I stand corrected. My 29-42 parts book says the same thing. The photograph in the parts book looks like my original with the speedometer gear unit on the front yoke. The front yoke on the ebay u-joint has a smooth outside shaft. It looks like the speedometer gear unit may be pressed onto a smooth shaft on my original, but it could be one solid unit. I don't intend to try to remove it to find out. Just waiting on some new throwout bearing clips to arrive and I'll be ready to re-install.
Just a couple of more questions if you can stand it:
1. Vintage Auto Parts lists a ball seat repair kit for the rear of the transmission. How important is it to make sure the ball seat and the U-joint ball housing is perfectly smooth? There are a few moderate scratches running front to back in the transmission ball seat. Can I just polish this out? or is the U-joint likely to rattle if I do this?
2. My transmission gasket kit came with four identical gaskets that go between the rear transmission housing and U-joint ball housing. Are the extras used as shims? I can't find anything in the shop manual regarding this. If so, how do I know how many I need?
I am much obliged for your very helpful replies. I'm still on a steep learning curve, but would not be able to do this without your kind advice.
Randy

Randy, I just encountered the same issues with my '35. It had been several years since I installed the ball joint and I asked myself the same questions. I made a new, single gasket from good gasket material (Blue Rhino) and it works well. There's enough slop in the spline that a few thousandths in a gasket would hurt.
As for the ball mine is pretty smooth and it's one of the few parts that doesn't leak! It seals well but the ball is pretty smooth. I've also had good success using metal epoxy to fill gouges in sealing surfaces and then sand it smooth. Should work. Also check the female part to make sure there are no burrs that could scratch up the ball. If still in doubt after your repair, rotate the ball so the scratches are at the 12 o'clock position and not exposed to the oil bath.
Oh, and we all have learning curves! I've gotten lots of good advice on this forum too!

Sounds good. To be clear, the scratches that I have are on the inside (concave) part of the ball seat, and not on the sealing surfaces. I've used JB Weld to fill in holes and then sand with good success in the past.

The four "gaskets" are shims.If the ball is too tight it will bind, not flex, and really tear up the seat.Too lose and it will leak,The correct method to "adjust" is to mount the ball-less the torque tube and install all the shims-remove shim until slight drag is felt on ball.The ball kit is a brass seat that renews the surface that the ball rides in....most have scratches etc.-just smooth a little and reuse.It will last another 50 years.


I should have said the brass seat attaches to the rear of the trans. case-it provides a new wearing surface on the case - eleminating replaceing the case due to wear.The ball itself and the retainer were easy to replace and inexpensive.

Gene,
I must have had a brain cramp when I said the gasket thickness didn't matter. You're right, it would effect the fit of the ball and socket.

Randy, I'm doing this from memory as I am not home to check but I think the concave (socket) part mounts on the trans case with 4 bolts. It may still be possible to rotate the socket by removing these...but I can't recall if that would effect the speedometer drive or maybe something else.

OK. I feel goooood! This is the first time I've attempted any kind of transmission rebuild, and it works! Of course, I had a couple of "senior moments" along the way when I first put it back in and thought that I forgot to install a roller bearing. Somehow I had two extra roller bearings and was sure I forgot. Anyway, when I finally installed everything (new clutch, throwout bearing, new 1st gear, synchro drum, reverse idler gear, bearings), it actually went into gear quite nicely. Shifted from 1st to 2nd very well, without the occasional clash and forceful effort that was required before. One issue however, is that it grinds when downshifting from 2nd to 1st, unless I am at a complete stop.
My question: Is this typical of these older, non-synchromesh (This is the WM) transmission? Have I done something wrong in the rebuild? Or do I just need to adjust the clutch properly? If the latter, my manual describes two adjustments, one for the distance of the clutch pedal from the floor (supposed to be 1/2"), and one for the clutch linkage to adjust the position where the clutch actually engages. The clutch linkage adjustment is obvious, but I don't see any other adjustment. What is the proper way to adjust the clutch on the '36 Master? Thanks again guys. You've been a great resource for me.
Randy

1st gear is not syncronized and can not be engaged unless car is standing still-or almost.
Your A-OK

You would have to wait untill 1966 for the fully scyncronized 3 speed transmission in a passenger car.

Wonderful! Thanks.

Randy,
Sounds like your trans overhaul worked out great. Congratulations!
You can "cheat" a little by double-clutching to go from second to first. With the transmission in neutral (between second and first) bring the rev's up a little, let the clutch out for a second and then coax her into first. I wouldn't suggest you do this at more than just a mile an hour or two...maybe three. With a little practice you can get pretty smooth with it.
The long-stroke engine has enough low end torque to enable you to just use second gear when going thru stop signs. Besides, these days does anyone really STOP at stop signs or before turning right on red? It's a pet peeve of mine when we drive modern cars but I hope others will be a bit more understanding when I drive my '35!