So.... Everyone has seen pictures of my 34 town sedan and some of you know the level of the quality/work that has gone into the car, as well as the detail and time looking for the right parts.

So my questions here is, during judging at Flint how are the judges going to be looking at the car to make sure they are fair through the whole judging process?

So let me give you some background here. At the last meet when I was judging the 31's there were 2 things that made a car or didn't. I was judging the engines during the meet. When I started with the first 31, I think we had 10 to judge, I started marking off points if they didn't have AC G-12 plugs and a honeycomb radiator. I told myself someone in this line up will have G-12's at some point and I wanted to make sure that they got the right points. Well, would you believe out of 10 car's, two of them had G-12's?

So how are we going to make sure something like this happens at Flint? I know I've looked long and hard for my K-10 spark plugs. OK, to the cat is out of the bag, now can you find the other cool things that I have on the car.

I can tell you what hapened to me the last time I had our 31 judged. I lost four points for something that is correct. A month or so later I asked the fellow that judged that part of the car about it. He said he wasn't sure so he took the points off.

They do the best they can with what they know. Sometimes they are judging a class they know nothing about. The last time I judged I did not sign up for judging. I was recruited. Since I didn't have our 31 there I said I could judge 31 and 32. I had to judge everything up to WW 2.

Good luck and I hope the best vehicles win.

Bruce,
I wish I could tell you exactly how they are going to judge in Flint. It all depends on the individual judges and the specific instructions given by the judging officials. Recently the object has been to try not to upset anyone and allow "safety" items to be installed without penalty.

I displayed both my '32 Pickup and the Boss's '31 Fire Truck with 100% original ignition components including the oxblood cap, functioning coil, original spark plug wires including ends. Never did anyone make any comment to me about those parts. I surmised that most had never seen them so didn't know what they were looking at. Since most also knew I was the TA for those trucks they might have assumed they might be right so didn't deduct points.

Brucie: The two statements above should answer your question since those have been typical problems with the judging process for decades.

Hey Guys,

I know, that is why some people might not like how I judge. But you’re always going to get the same thing from me since I judge as it was sold. A few years ago I was told I was the only person that took 50 point for an engine. The way I look at it, if it’s wrong it’s wrong. If I don't know, I ask or don't take points.

So my point, I don't want to see someone getting the same points as I do for spark plugs when they are using a replacement plug like a 44 or 45. There are other things which I bet other people won’t know about. Did you know that the dual trumpet horns in 34 used a special wiring harness? I bet I'll get marked off for that one.

Now, I think we have talked about tires on here before. I should be marked down for the wrong size of tires on the 34. Bet that won’t happen.

Personally we should be judging to a standard for each year of car and that is how I try to judge what ever area I'm judging.

I'm waiting for when the 32 phaeton is done, it’s a January car. What type of spark plugs should be in it? And you’re wrong if you tell me G-10's.

Anyway I just brought this up so maybe someone who knows the chief should have him talk about this at the meeting. This should be the hardest judging your car will ever see. The bad part is I know the best 34 TA will not be Judging 34’s and that is Dave.

G-12.

I knew you would know that Skip.

Anyway I just brought this up so maybe someone who knows the chief should have him talk about this at the meeting. This should be the hardest judging your car will ever see. The bad part is I know the best 34 TA will not be Judging 34’s and that is Dave.
_________________________

I would think it should be the "fairest" judging your car will ever see. That makes more sense to me.

The correct tire size for 30 & 31 is 475 - 19 and I'll bet most of them will have 475/500 - 19.

Hi Bob,

Using the word "Fairest" are you meaning that Judges should not over look the fine details? So say your using a 569S carb on your 32 when it should be a 212? They are both a Carter "W-1" but one is a replacement carb for a 32? If that is what your meaning with that word, then yes we are on the same page.

Backroads, your very right about the 30/31 tire size.

The tire size is an example of a dilemma that often arises in judging. Since reproduction "original" tires (size, tread pattern, manufacturer, etc.) are not available for many old Chevys how should they be "judged"? I have maintained that since it is possible for someone to bring a vehicle to the judging field with the same tires as delivered (I know that Pinky was attempting to collect a '32 set many years ago. I have a few "Goodyear Silvertown" 5.25 x 18 tires) then any obvious reproduction tires should receive a small point deduction. The contrary viewpoint is that since the tires with multiple sizes, different tread, etc. are all that are available then no deduction should be made if one of the sizes on the tire is the correct one for the vehicle. They argue that to deduct will only irritate owners as they don't have any other option. My view is the same as Bruce. Why punish the owner that has gone the "extra mile" by finding the "original" parts by not deducting for reproductions? To do otherwise is not in keeping with the VCCA credo of "preservation and restoration as delivered". His example of the AC G-12 plugs is another similar situation.

Man, that statement is dead on and I totally agree!

I can't wait to read this thread AFTER the Flint meet!!!?!?!





ha ha ha ha ha

It ought to be interesting reading particularly now that they are taking soap operas off daytime tv. I am sure it will not rival "As the World Turns" but maybe a close second.

I will work on some of the script now. "I can't believe that they didn't take points off his car like they did mine." "I know it was right because I read it in ????? magazine." "That is all that I could find." "I'm never going to have mine judged again."

What you will not hear is: "I am going to volunteer to judge next time 'cause I think I can help make things better."

"I can't wait to read this thread AFTER the Flint meet!!!?!?!"

It probably isn't going to be pretty.

I allowed myself to get all bent out of shape after receiving my Judging Form back from Grand Junction. I got over it, or at least I think I did. The judges made some bad choices for deductions that ultimately hurt the possibility of the vehicle doing better than it did.

I enjoy judging and I like showing my car and regardless of earlier experiences, I'm probably going to continue to do that. Things aren't going to change much for the VCCA Judging under the terms we're forced to work with and I'm not sure I'm interested in seeing a change anyway. The system doesn't allow me to judge in the classes I'm remotely familiar with and that's understandable. So mistakes will continue to occur.

There's a strong chance that Bruce's spark plug situation won't be to his liking. Since his vehicle is a "First Time" judged unit it more that likely won't be the vehicle his assigned judging team will look at first. So his team starts with the Preservation vehicles, then moves to the Senior Cars and so on until it reaches his vehicle. The judge doing the engines doesn't have the detailed knowledge to pick up on the fact that the first 5 cars he viewed had a later version spark plugs and he takes no deductions from those vehicles. Now he looks at Bruce's car with the G 12 plugs and notices they are different from what was viewed previously. Now he has a choice to make, is this vehicle wrong or was he wrong on the previous vehicles. He questions the judging team and they all agree that this vehicle is correct and the previous vehicles were incorrect and should have received a deduction, now what? The previous judged vehicle judging forms are gone and in the hands of the tabulators, can't change those? If he didn't bother to ask he'll probably give Bruce's car a deduction, but if he did ask for help, the correct answer is no deductions for Bruce's car or any other car in the class. Either way Bruce gets screwed, no consideration for being correct and no loss for the others for being incorrect.

With an all volunteer system things probably aren't going to change anytime soon. My advise, work to make your vehicle the best it can be and don't allow the systems short comings to get into your knickers (but it's hard).

This is what I'm saying ...Chipper has hit the nail on the head for me.

BUT, all judges need to be on the same page ..and not simply judge with individual "opinions".

"Why punish the owner that has gone the "extra mile" by finding the "original" parts by not deducting for reproductions? To do otherwise is not in keeping with the VCCA credo of "preservation and restoration as delivered". His example of the AC G-12 plugs is another similar situation".
_________________________

"The judge doing the engines doesn't have the detailed knowledge to pick up on the fact that the first 5 cars he viewed had a later version spark plugs and he takes no deductions from those vehicles".

See, here is where I get mixed up. Mr VCCA member works his rear end off, getting his car as close to factory specs as possible, Then comes the judge who doesn't have the "detailed knowledge".

When, then, is he/she judging? Seems very unfair to the owner.

Right on Bob, Dick, Chip and Skip! I really liked what you guys wrote. The best one is Dick's, "Bruce gets screwed". That is what I'm figuring and why I started this topic. I will always know that I did my best and that I did most of the work, I didn't pay someone to do it for me.

Just so you guys know, I've been Judging for many years but have never had a car ready to have Judged. So this is why the Central and Flint meets will be so special to me. I'm really looking forward to seeing everyone and meeting a lot of new friends.

Thanks for all your thoughts and I’ll report what happens with my spark plugs. (PS – 34 master used K-10’s plugs, if I didn’t note this I might get marked down for not having G-12’s)

The above statement is very true. That is also what I said on this forum about a year or so ago. I made the statement that when someone is "pulled from the parking lot" to judge a class he knows absolutely nothing about or if an individual knows nothing about judging, it is unfair to the person judging the car and it is unfair to the car owner as well. After saying that I was criticized here on CC II for making such a frivolous statement.

Good luck with your spark plugs Brucie.

I think it would be great to have the TAs be the Team Captain of the judging team they are the advisor on.

Hey Back Roads, You are very right about that. 5 years ago a Grand Junction, Chip was the team captain for the 31's and he was a great advisor and leader.

Also I should point out one more thing, by the time I get to Flint I hope to be a Senior for Judging.

Bruce

In "Oldie's" comments he mentioned about the judging forms being gone by the time they got to Bruce's car. I have often wondered why the forms are run off before a class is completly finished. That is say Preservation, SR and JR classes, within the year classes. By holding the entire class until finished this type of situation could be corrected.

Would it be beneficial for the judging teams to meet; possibly the day before; to review the technical manuals that are available the day of judging? This might help educate the non experienced with a given age car, so that they judge fairly.

Having the TAs might be an option if the TAs attended the meet. Many of them will not!

I proposed a special award system several years ago. A person would apply for detailed "judging" several months before a meet, knowledgeable people recruited to do the evaluation and some time during the meet (but separate from regular judging) have the evaluation. That system would provide time for the evaluators to review specific information on the subject vehicle, bring literature or references to the evaluation and ultimately recognize the best examples of either preservation or restoration. That is the only way I know of to do a reasonable comprehensive evaluation of a Vintage Chevrolet. It might not be as comprehensive as NCRS judging and have published standards but would be much better than the current VCCA system. The proposal has only received criticism and why it is a bad idea from the "powers".

When, then, is he/she judging? Seems very unfair to the owner.




My mistake, should read .... why, then, is he/she judging?

Well,for certain I am getting educated on "judging". Still, I'm of the belief the owner of his pride and joy has exhausted himself making certain all is A-1 with his restoration. Then comes the judge who may not be nearly as familiar with the vehicle, yet he has the final word. If I'm understanding this correctly, I can understand why folks have negative feelings about the judging process. I think it's a sad situation. But I'm not familiar enough or smart enough to offer a bullet proof solution.