A '31 Coach was dropped off at the shop over the weekend for a full frame-off. I am in the process of documenting the car with photographs and will post 90-100 photos on my website soon. Here are the numbers that I have found on the firewall tag:
JOB: 31551
BODY N23326
TRIM 1
PAINT 88 (I think ??)

What I am having trouble deciding is whether the Paint code is actually a 66 or 68, or maybe an 88. Everyone that comes by and looks has a different opinion! {grin} The car is a very solid and original, unmolested barn find that apparently has never been painted and still has much of the orig. interior still intact. Although the paint is flaking it has the appearance of a darkly faded blue and the wheels show creme and black. Since I do not understand the paint codes that Bill Barker has graciously posted on his site, can someone explain to me how the paint codes work? Code #66 shows it to be Black body with Black wheels and Creme stripe. It also says this code is for the Std. Sedan. I might add that this car appears to be a Deluxe with dual sidemounts, stone guard, & luggage rack.
Code #68 shows it could have been Maroon w/ Black wheels howeverthis paint when rubbed does not have any type of red tint.
Code #86 & 88 do not really seem to fit the tint of the existing paint either. Can someone help me with this?

Also, did the factory or dealer offer an option of different color wheels and/or striping on the Deluxe cars? Thanks

How about number 63??

If it was originally blue it would have to be #72 Serge Blue on hood, lower body and window offsets with black mouldings and upper body and Cream Medium wheels and stripe, or #76 Boatswain Blue and black with Cream Medium stripe, wheels black or Cream Medium. Probably the original combination was #66, black with Cream Medium stripe and wheels.

Well now "J Dawg" .... that number (opinion) hadn't been offered by anyone who has seen the tag on this car but I will gladly accept it!

Are you seriously saying that could be an option? On the chart it says that #63 is a Phaeton color. Since this is clearly not one .... what do I do. Do I restamp it to one of those numbers and make it more legible?

d2d2 ... I don't believe that the number's even come close to the shape of a #72 or #76. Thanks though.

What is considered acceptable in the world of Bowtie Etiquette on this when owner's want an authentic color other than what is stamped. I do not feel the owner in this case really cares because his stable pretty much has the whole rainbow in it. This vehicle is being rebuilt with concours displaying in it's future so it needs to be correct in fine point detail. Are all the paint codes acceptable or were their open car and closed car colors?

#63 is for Roadster, Sport Roadster, and Phaeton (cushion retainer, top bow slat irons, etc.) Blue Bell Blue is for trucks, Coolie Blue for Sedan Delivery, #82 Boatswain Blue is for Cabriolet and Landau Phaeton.

d2d2......you are definitely paying attention! This is good! By the way, have you ever seen a color combination number that was designated for an open car only, stamped on a Fisher Body cowl tag for a closed car? It has happened, and it looks weird too!

Thank guys I really appreciate this. Are you saying that blue is not a correct color for this car. I did find this picture on Bill's site.

Several different blues are correct colors for 1931, however we need to know exactly what the paint number is on the 1931 in question to see if blue was the correct factory color on that particular car or not.

I think that is the real problem with it right now ... the Paint Code is not legible enough to discern what number it really is. I was thinking a bit ago about making a pencil rubbing of it and blowing it up to see if that helped any.

2nd question again -- was wheel color changes and dealer option then like it was with the Fords? If so what was acceptable?

On several different 1931 color combinations, two wire wheel colors were optional. However, the dealer would repaint the wheels, or the entire car for that matter, any color you wanted when you purchased a car.....but for a price of course!

In "Fine-Point Judging" what is considered acceptable regarding paint color and wheel color? If the number is stamped on the tag does that mean it is acceptable?

Good question! In just about every car club judging, "all numbers will match". But in the VCCA judging, the cowl tag information is usually disregarded and as long as the car is painted a color that was available for that year it is acceptable.

Yep, that is what I read in the newly revised VCCA judgeing handbook.

Interesting .........
Is that because they were mis-stamped so often or is there another thought behind it.

Also, does this thinking apply to wheel combinations too? In the case that the car was painted either the #68 Maroon, or the #66 Black, would some color such as Mohawk Red be acceptable as an optional color for the wheels and the striping?

Thanks I really appreciate you hanging with me on this!!

Well I kinda figured it was a common sense approach. Paint is the first thing to go on a old car and as long as it is a color that was offered that year on that model the color is not a factor, as long as the paint is original in application and shine, not dull and grainy nor too slick and shiny or too metallic. What do you judgeing gurus say?
:p

I guess I don't have to worry about that, all I can find on the early (March manf. date ) on my '28 sedan is Faunce green body , black fenders and gray wheels and window garrnish moldings, with yellow pinstripping on the body and hood, I forgot what color pin stripping on the wheels

Another good question. The car is supposed to be judged as it came from the factory, or from the dealer.....depending upon who you talk to. That makes sense, but then the club has always deviated from that statement by disregarding the valuable information that is on the cowl tag. Therefore, as long as the car is painted an original color for that particular year, then it is acceptable, even though that color may or may not match the information that is supplied on the cowl tag. The same is true for the wheel color, and a lot depends upon who is judging the car as well. The wheel color may or may not be correct based on what the body color is. Some judges will deduct points for that, others won't. Very rarely were the cowl tags incorrect.

Junkyard Dog, should I get the club's TA (Forest Sweet???) to make a determination and see if he will put it in writing. Does that hold any power in the Chief Judge's eyes?

I believe that the rules are determined by the judging committee, so it probably would have to be a board decision I would think.

Combination numbers in my list recorded for Job 31551 - these are from cars of VCCA members: 66, 68, 69, 72, 79.

d2d2 you said " Combination numbers in my list recorded for Job 31551 " .... does that mean that these are considered the acceptable Paint Code numbers as far as 'Fine-Point' judging is concerned?

What is your take on the optional wheel colors?

Also, do you know the Joiners from Rio Rancho? They do the GreatRace with us and Bobby & Gab are dear friends.

These are only the ones recorded in my survey a few years back, it doesn't mean others were not used including the ones JunkYardDog said. The information seems to tell us the body styles each combination was intended for, it also does not tell us they always were used that way without any exceptions. 68 was the most recorded number for the coach. J.R. Broome of Tipton Station Rd. south of Knoxville worked at a Knoxville dealership in those years once told me that black wheels were an option for almost any color.

I have met the Joiners but doubt if they would remember me. I've been to their museum several times. They have a '32 5 pass. coupe that I was told belonged to Elmer Ryan. Lots of other interesting cars and trucks including one of my favorites, a Wills Sainte Claire.

Brent,
If your customer intends to show the car at concours, then matching the cowl tag would be a must. If only VCCA events then it currently is not as important. If AACA or other multi-make club then VCCA interpretation will not be used.
My personal opinion is that each vehicle should be as close to originally manufactured with factory approved accessories as possible. Currently the VCCA Judging Committee does not agree with that. It may change as VCCA judging improves and particular people lose their influence over the process.

Thanks Mr. Sweet!!

I guess ths brings us "full circle" then since the tag is very illegible. The numbers just seems to vague at best. I believe I will try to make a pencil rubbing and enlarge that to help make a determination.

I might add (and this may be the problem) that all the lettering and numbers except the paint code number itself, and the trim code number itself are embossed - and the trim code and the paint code numbers are stamped using a smaller font than the other embossed letters. Is this the correct way the numbers are supposed to be? (I guess I will verify for myself by going and looking at Dad's Landau.)

If this is indeed correct, is it acceptable to then restamp the number making them more legible, and thus in the process taking all doubt away? Does anyone offer the correct font stamps?

I totally agree with Chipper on this issue!! The car should absolutely be as close to original as possible......and that includes using the cowl tag information as well. That's why it is there and to ignore it during the judging process just doesn't make any sense. The VCCA judging doesn't even check the job numbers on the cowl tag to make sure that the car has the correct body. At any rate, I totally back the Chipper dude on this one!!

All of the information on the cowl tag was embossed except for the trim number and the body number, which were stamped. You can also order new cowl tags with your numbers stamped on. There is a fellow under "Services Offered" in the G&D that sells new Fisher Body cowl tags.

For what it is worth I agree with Chip and JunkYardDog and D2D2 I think that if you want another combination other than one that could be possible from the condition of your cowl tag It would not be any more dishonest to replace the current "original" tag with a counterfiet replacement tag than to over stamp the "original".

But then as far as I know none of the above are or ever will be an AACA judge!

Whackie, been into the Colorado Cool-Aide? At least one of us has already been an AACA judge.

Whooopss!!!! .......... .... .. .

Actually I think this thread is heading the wrong way. We personally are not really interested in changing the color from what it was painted at the factory, nor are we interested in falsifying the ID Plate. The two major issues I am up against here is to make sure that the vehicle's color DOES match what is on the ID plate, AND that I protect my "hind-end" from a boot in the event I do something stupid and the Judge kicks the car out of competition because he reads the code as an 86 and we interpretted it as an 88 for example. Thus you see my concerns.

The biggest problem at hand right now is that the Paint Number is poorly stamped and is very difficult to read. Since I have nothing to compare the "6" and the "8" stamp with, we are having difficulty deciding the combination of numbers (ie: 66 68 86 88 etc.) I tried to make a pencil rubbing but all that made was a mess on the paper.

I do appreciate all the time and consideration you have put forth in this thread though.

As mentioned earlier, in VCCA judging you will not get the "boot" as long as the car is painted a correct 1931 color, since the VCCA judging is not that critical. The VCCA judges do not look at the paint number on the cowl tag, so they will not know if you used the correct paint code number that is on the cowl tag or not.

Hey Chipper is that where you got The Bugle and all of that Knowledge! or is it someone else?
XcuseMe for not knowing! You need a badge or something to identify your self to us Peons!

Are you comeing to the Judgeing school in Ft. Worth the 10th?

Brent, my chevrolet Color Schedule has a note at the bottom third of the page that states that starting in about October of 29 Chevrolet Motor Co. inauguratet the system of stamping on the left body sill just inside the left front door, a number identifying the color scheme on the car, you might check to see if yours has this Combination # stamped into the wood sill.

Aren't there places on a '31 that you can check for orginal paint? I mean places that are hidden or covered or inbetween other pieces of metal. When he starts to take the car apart he might get a better (non-faded) idea of what the orginal paint looked like in '31.

Where would you look for this orginal paint, maybe around the gas tank and apron area? or ???

Another idea is if some people with a "6" or "8" and maybe a "3" on their cowl tag could send it to Brent (email) so he could see the font and sort of match them up, maybe.

As a last resort (if money isn't an issue) take the tag off and send it to a lab where they can study it really close and make a decision.

Yeah Gator that is an avenue we will be exploring, and 29 Chev I will look for the numbers. Another detail that we are considering is that it is highly possible that this car was all Black because there seems to be no differential in the color on any exposed metal ...

29Chevy: The paint code number was stamped on the driver's side wood main sill in 1929 and 1930 only since the paint code was not stamped on the cowl tag at that time. 1931 was the first year for the paint number to be stamped on the cowl tag, so the paint number was no longer stamped on the wood main sill.

Brent: What color is the instrument panel and the recess around the gauges? If the recess doesn't have the engine turned transfer around the gauges, then it would be painted body color in this area.

There is too much glare on the photo and I can't tell if the recess is dark blue or black. What does it look like in person?

Looks black to this color blind person and so do all my socks, blue, black, etc..etc. I bet it was black.
Man how do you keep up with all them gauges? Looks like a cockpit for a P-51!

It could be blue since there was a dark blue that looks almost black, and you really can't tell in a photo. This is something that has to be looked at in person with good lighting. At this point it could still be blue or black.

Yeah "J Dawg" ... if your in the neighborhood tomorrow, stop by and I will feed you lunch and then after lunch you tell me what color it is!! You gonna be out cruising around in 10-uh-C tomorrow??

It has the look of Black but you see traces of faded deep Blue tint. When you wet your finger and rub the paint it has a deep blue tint but on the exterior the blue tint seems the same on the top and the bottom. That is making me believe that the car was one solid color. If that is the case, it would pretty much substantiate that the car was all black wouldn't it?

Here is a picture (super large) of the under dash but I cannot see anything there that helps out either.
HUGE Under Dash Picture

Great photo of under the dash.....but still no help. How about the inside of the door jams? What do they look like?

According to the paint specs. if the body was a dark blue, the roof was black. Tell ya what, I will be there tomorrow for lunch. What are we having? Hopefully, it will be a good grade of a dog biscuit and some Coors. I might have to wet a few tires on your '31 before I check out the paint however! I hope that you understand....but it's a dog thing!

Hey Brent......how about a close-up photo of the cowl tag for us to look at??

The door jambs are all about the same as the other painted parts. The tag shot came out very fuzzy so that isn't much help. When I get it off or in a better location I will re-shoot it.

I have allowed 40 hours for documentation and catalogue-ing on this car and so I will take some more pains when I get in behind some trim panels.

You guys will be so sick of me when I get done with this thing you will 'puke' when you see my name and place me on your "IGNORE" list! [he he] If it is any concellation, our goal is to have it ready for the Christmas Parade on Thanksgiving weekend. (Why they don't call it the Thanksgiving Day parade I don't know BUT they don't)

Christmas parade on Thanksgiving weekend? Well.....that's kinda sorta like having a fourth of July parade on Easter ain't it???? ha ha!

Hey guys....

A couple of items I'll share.

1st... When nitrocellulous black begins to oxidize, it will have a blue appearance.

An earlier post suggested removing a piece of trim to expose the original unfaded paint. Great idea!!! I have been able to match original colors on many projects that way.

2nd.... Look at the firewall paint, it is usually has enough oil on it to protect the original paint. Use a mild solvent to remove the oil.

You can use a small quantity of rubbing compound on a towel and polish up an area of the dash or the firewall. That will remove the oxidation and give you a pretty good sample of the original color. If you don't have any rubbing compound handy, use some baking soda and water to make a paste ant use that.

Hope that helps...

Brent, I bet you'll find it's #66. I have a Special Sedan with #77, Black with Aurora Red stripe and wheels. At first I didn't want to do it in black because there are so many other good colors and because when it's all black it doesn't show off the contrast between the window offset colors and the upper body. But I restored it in black because that is what the number says. Now that it's done I'm not a bit sorry. It's so black it soaks up all the light in the shop.

I'm looking at the body number plate on a '32 Cabriolet. The number is 96. The top of the 6 curves so far around to the right that it almost looks like an 8.

Just for grins.. here's a photo of one of my '31s and you can see how the six is formed... a good digital camera that shoots close-ups might solve this riddle for you.
Barker\'s Firewall Tag

Pretty good photo Billy, I have a Sony Mavica mvc-fd83 That has a macro setting and also a 6x zoom ( not anything above normal) that takes good sharp close ups works well with flash to capture casting and engine numbers Etc. With an AE mode that really works and also will give you exposure control, I like the fact that it records on floppy disks and just pop them into the A drive and view them in Explorer. it makes two images each shot,one JPEG, and an image with 5 to 15 seconds of voice and a higher quality image also That prints well even when enlarged.

Hey thanks guys ... Black is not a problem in my book and this body is really straight so it should be a breeze to do but the color is not my call now. The owner will be here today and I asked him to make the determination ... much like this govt. heathcare issue -- just passing the buck!

I do see one major difference and I think as soon as I get a picture posted you will see why I was having so much trouble. The font type and the size that it is stamped on that tag of Bills is MUCH larger than what I have stamped on this one plus the one I have is stamped almost at the edge of the tag on the right size.

I really need to sped some time getting the pictures up on a webpage so you can look at this thing and make some other determinations about it.

Thanks, JunkYardDog. They always tell us when they started but neglect to say when it stopped.

Yep, that's typical! Chevrolet usually only gives you half the story, and then they let you figure out the other half for yourself.

For your information the '31 dash depression is the horizontal depression above the instruments and not the depression around the instruments (It is called Instrument Panel - Carrier Section). If the car is in fact No. 66 then the entire dash will be black as will the body.

Only in Texas do they call it the "Instrument Panel Carrier Section". In the rest of the normal world the area around the gauges is called the "Instrument Panel Recess". But we do agree that the horizontal area at the top of the dash is called the "Instrument Panel Depression". Besides, no dude will know what you are talking about when you say "Instrument Panel Carrier Section" anyway. Gee!!! ha ha!

Whad-Ah- do- you mean, JunkYardDog? no one in the normal world, I thought C.C was making a nice clear discription of that durn Dashbord carrier thingy!

Well.......you are a Texan......so you probably understand what thingy CC is talking about. The rest of us don't talk "thingys", we talk do-dads and there's a big difference between the two! But, here in Oregon we have "dubaceries", and they are way more important than "thingys" or "do-dads"!

I wonder if that Amazon site would have a dictionary or a crossover word book from Texan to Normal ? I may see if they do, I usually use "do-hicky" but was useing "Thingy" for the benefit of those folks on the left coast, My mistake and I apologize!

Ha ha! No need to apologize because us dudes in Oregon definitely know what a "thingy" is........I think! Maybe I had better check. I will get back to you later once I find out!

Just a thought;

I think JunkYardDog told me that the cowl tag was put on after painting, if so, under the cowl tag should be a very good sample of your orginial factory paint.

Sorry guys, It was not Texan, Texican, Spanglish or any other of those languages. It was Chevroleteze. I took the name from the 1931 Chevrolet Engineering drawing of the paint scheme. I think thimamagig. dohicky, what-ya-callit, or the others proposed will do fine for me. "That place round the 'sturments would also work for me. Doesn't really matter what we call it as it was painted the same color as most of the rest of the dash.

Ya......but one dude in Oklahoma calls it "Them there holes in the board where them there gaugey things go!" Hey, it works for him!!

Hey Deduce Man.....are ya a "ghost" writer??