A '31 Coach was dropped off at the shop over the weekend for a full frame-off. I am in the process of documenting the car with photographs and will post 90-100 photos on my website soon. Here are the numbers that I have found on the firewall tag:
JOB: 31551
BODY N23326
TRIM 1
PAINT 88 (I think ??)

What I am having trouble deciding is whether the Paint code is actually a 66 or 68, or maybe an 88. Everyone that comes by and looks has a different opinion! {grin} The car is a very solid and original, unmolested barn find that apparently has never been painted and still has much of the orig. interior still intact. Although the paint is flaking it has the appearance of a darkly faded blue and the wheels show creme and black. Since I do not understand the paint codes that Bill Barker has graciously posted on his site, can someone explain to me how the paint codes work? Code #66 shows it to be Black body with Black wheels and Creme stripe. It also says this code is for the Std. Sedan. I might add that this car appears to be a Deluxe with dual sidemounts, stone guard, & luggage rack.
Code #68 shows it could have been Maroon w/ Black wheels howeverthis paint when rubbed does not have any type of red tint.
Code #86 & 88 do not really seem to fit the tint of the existing paint either. Can someone help me with this?

Also, did the factory or dealer offer an option of different color wheels and/or striping on the Deluxe cars? Thanks

How about number 63??

If it was originally blue it would have to be #72 Serge Blue on hood, lower body and window offsets with black mouldings and upper body and Cream Medium wheels and stripe, or #76 Boatswain Blue and black with Cream Medium stripe, wheels black or Cream Medium. Probably the original combination was #66, black with Cream Medium stripe and wheels.

Well now "J Dawg" .... that number (opinion) hadn't been offered by anyone who has seen the tag on this car but I will gladly accept it!

Are you seriously saying that could be an option? On the chart it says that #63 is a Phaeton color. Since this is clearly not one .... what do I do. Do I restamp it to one of those numbers and make it more legible?

d2d2 ... I don't believe that the number's even come close to the shape of a #72 or #76. Thanks though.

What is considered acceptable in the world of Bowtie Etiquette on this when owner's want an authentic color other than what is stamped. I do not feel the owner in this case really cares because his stable pretty much has the whole rainbow in it. This vehicle is being rebuilt with concours displaying in it's future so it needs to be correct in fine point detail. Are all the paint codes acceptable or were their open car and closed car colors?

#63 is for Roadster, Sport Roadster, and Phaeton (cushion retainer, top bow slat irons, etc.) Blue Bell Blue is for trucks, Coolie Blue for Sedan Delivery, #82 Boatswain Blue is for Cabriolet and Landau Phaeton.

d2d2......you are definitely paying attention! This is good! By the way, have you ever seen a color combination number that was designated for an open car only, stamped on a Fisher Body cowl tag for a closed car? It has happened, and it looks weird too!

Thank guys I really appreciate this. Are you saying that blue is not a correct color for this car. I did find this picture on Bill's site.

Several different blues are correct colors for 1931, however we need to know exactly what the paint number is on the 1931 in question to see if blue was the correct factory color on that particular car or not.

I think that is the real problem with it right now ... the Paint Code is not legible enough to discern what number it really is. I was thinking a bit ago about making a pencil rubbing of it and blowing it up to see if that helped any.

2nd question again -- was wheel color changes and dealer option then like it was with the Fords? If so what was acceptable?

On several different 1931 color combinations, two wire wheel colors were optional. However, the dealer would repaint the wheels, or the entire car for that matter, any color you wanted when you purchased a car.....but for a price of course!

In "Fine-Point Judging" what is considered acceptable regarding paint color and wheel color? If the number is stamped on the tag does that mean it is acceptable?

Good question! In just about every car club judging, "all numbers will match". But in the VCCA judging, the cowl tag information is usually disregarded and as long as the car is painted a color that was available for that year it is acceptable.

Yep, that is what I read in the newly revised VCCA judgeing handbook.

Interesting .........
Is that because they were mis-stamped so often or is there another thought behind it.

Also, does this thinking apply to wheel combinations too? In the case that the car was painted either the #68 Maroon, or the #66 Black, would some color such as Mohawk Red be acceptable as an optional color for the wheels and the striping?

Thanks I really appreciate you hanging with me on this!!

Well I kinda figured it was a common sense approach. Paint is the first thing to go on a old car and as long as it is a color that was offered that year on that model the color is not a factor, as long as the paint is original in application and shine, not dull and grainy nor too slick and shiny or too metallic. What do you judgeing gurus say?
:p

I guess I don't have to worry about that, all I can find on the early (March manf. date ) on my '28 sedan is Faunce green body , black fenders and gray wheels and window garrnish moldings, with yellow pinstripping on the body and hood, I forgot what color pin stripping on the wheels

Another good question. The car is supposed to be judged as it came from the factory, or from the dealer.....depending upon who you talk to. That makes sense, but then the club has always deviated from that statement by disregarding the valuable information that is on the cowl tag. Therefore, as long as the car is painted an original color for that particular year, then it is acceptable, even though that color may or may not match the information that is supplied on the cowl tag. The same is true for the wheel color, and a lot depends upon who is judging the car as well. The wheel color may or may not be correct based on what the body color is. Some judges will deduct points for that, others won't. Very rarely were the cowl tags incorrect.

Junkyard Dog, should I get the club's TA (Forest Sweet???) to make a determination and see if he will put it in writing. Does that hold any power in the Chief Judge's eyes?

I believe that the rules are determined by the judging committee, so it probably would have to be a board decision I would think.

Combination numbers in my list recorded for Job 31551 - these are from cars of VCCA members: 66, 68, 69, 72, 79.

d2d2 you said " Combination numbers in my list recorded for Job 31551 " .... does that mean that these are considered the acceptable Paint Code numbers as far as 'Fine-Point' judging is concerned?

What is your take on the optional wheel colors?

Also, do you know the Joiners from Rio Rancho? They do the GreatRace with us and Bobby & Gab are dear friends.

These are only the ones recorded in my survey a few years back, it doesn't mean others were not used including the ones JunkYardDog said. The information seems to tell us the body styles each combination was intended for, it also does not tell us they always were used that way without any exceptions. 68 was the most recorded number for the coach. J.R. Broome of Tipton Station Rd. south of Knoxville worked at a Knoxville dealership in those years once told me that black wheels were an option for almost any color.

I have met the Joiners but doubt if they would remember me. I've been to their museum several times. They have a '32 5 pass. coupe that I was told belonged to Elmer Ryan. Lots of other interesting cars and trucks including one of my favorites, a Wills Sainte Claire.

Brent,
If your customer intends to show the car at concours, then matching the cowl tag would be a must. If only VCCA events then it currently is not as important. If AACA or other multi-make club then VCCA interpretation will not be used.
My personal opinion is that each vehicle should be as close to originally manufactured with factory approved accessories as possible. Currently the VCCA Judging Committee does not agree with that. It may change as VCCA judging improves and particular people lose their influence over the process.

Thanks Mr. Sweet!!

I guess ths brings us "full circle" then since the tag is very illegible. The numbers just seems to vague at best. I believe I will try to make a pencil rubbing and enlarge that to help make a determination.

I might add (and this may be the problem) that all the lettering and numbers except the paint code number itself, and the trim code number itself are embossed - and the trim code and the paint code numbers are stamped using a smaller font than the other embossed letters. Is this the correct way the numbers are supposed to be? (I guess I will verify for myself by going and looking at Dad's Landau.)

If this is indeed correct, is it acceptable to then restamp the number making them more legible, and thus in the process taking all doubt away? Does anyone offer the correct font stamps?

I totally agree with Chipper on this issue!! The car should absolutely be as close to original as possible......and that includes using the cowl tag information as well. That's why it is there and to ignore it during the judging process just doesn't make any sense. The VCCA judging doesn't even check the job numbers on the cowl tag to make sure that the car has the correct body. At any rate, I totally back the Chipper dude on this one!!

All of the information on the cowl tag was embossed except for the trim number and the body number, which were stamped. You can also order new cowl tags with your numbers stamped on. There is a fellow under "Services Offered" in the G&D that sells new Fisher Body cowl tags.