I think I remember that JunkYardDog compared the FS paint color to some original unused (NOS) parts that he has in the original boxes and I think he said the color matched pretty close.

This to me is the most important evidence of the color (FS & Chevys of 40's) are selling are correct. IMHO

Unless I am having another senior moment...

In regards to professor Mack, I`m not sure that what he said is what you thought you understood. Hey Mackey Wackey!! Your cousin (my neighbor) Mr. Bill Brown asked me to say hello! Said he ran into you at the Southern Fall Tour this year. I was really looking forward to being there but had to cancel at the last because my wife was in the hospital. He said you guys really had a nice time. I think Bill will be getting our "BENT ROD AWARD" this year at our local VCCA Christmas party. He unfortunately had the most mishaps with his Vintage Chevrolets this year while on our local tours. This award has been passed around among our members for several years and I also have been the not so proud recipient of it.

Yeah Hoppy, Bill has had his ups and downs this year. You wouldn't know it from seeing how much fun he has.... Maybe next year will be better.
We really have some interesting nuts in our family trees, thank goodness there are also a good assortment of tree rodents in the families too!

JimG, My Email is bishop85frontiernet Thanks

Alright, this string brings up a sore point with me, so I’m going to get it off my chest. This has been bugging me for 5 months. Maybe I shouldn’t be “venting” like this, but I’m going to anyway!

When I went to restore my ’25 Roadster, I went all out, I wanted to make it the best that could be done. I spent a tremendous amount of time and money trying to make everything absolutely perfect. “Almost” was never good enough, whatever it took to make it absolutely correct. I never had a Trailer Queen before, but this one is. The other cars are all Drivers, and get driven a lot.

I think what started me off was that my Daddy was born in 1925, and I always wanted an early roadster (even though I can barely fit in it!).

So, when the time came to paint the engine, I asked my Tech Advisor (Ray H.) what to use. He was incredible as a Tech Advisor, by the way. I could never have restored this car (it was in boxes) without him. He emailed me back sometimes 5 times a day, usually with pictures, to answer my millions of questions. I am eternally in his debt.

Anyway, he said to use The Filling Station paint (great outfit!). They were, at that time (early 2003), just getting 4 cylinder paint on their shelves. They kept me waiting a few weeks, while they went back-and-forth with Ray and others, getting the paint dead-on, mixing and re-mixing until they were sure they had it right.

They sent the paint, I painted the engine.

By the way, I would describe the 4 cylinder color as Olive Green, like a World War I Army truck comes to mind.

The Roadster did incredibly well at Meets and Shows. It won “Best of Show - 4 Cylinder” at the first 3 national VCCA Meets it went to, always scoring very high. It did equally as well in AACA, getting its Senior Grand National, and the even more prestigious “National Award” presented at the AACA annual meeting in Philadelphia last year. I was humbled, honored, and proud.

So, finally to my complaint. This past summer, I took it to the 42nd Central Meet in Indiana. These guys are supposed to be the best, very knowledgeable crowd, and all that.

I heard on the show field (I was judging) that there was concern that my engine paint color might not be correct.

I had with me the ACTUAL CAN OF PAINT from The Filling Station. (I always bring it in case I need to touch up anything after trailering.) I had with me in my documentation file the Invoice from Filling Station, showing that I bought the paint, and the matching part number on the can etc. I had emails with me, from the VCCA Tech Advisor (Ray) saying that this was the correct paint to use on a 4 cylinder engine. In other words, I had BULLET PROOF documentation that my engine had the right color paint on it.

I presented this proof to the Chief Judge, the Deputy Chief Judge, and the Team Captain for my car. VCCA procedures say that the Owner is given the benefit of the doubt in any such situation; but I had all this documentation and Proof to boot!

What did they do? They raised the hoods on several other 4 cylinder cars on the field. Most of these cars were the light gray - pale green, the color that Bill Hirsch sells, which everyone pretty well knows is wrong, wrong, wrong. None of them were the color of my engine.

So, they took several points off my car for Incorrect Engine Paint! Then, to add insult to injury, they deducted points for my hubcaps as being wrong. These are the original hubcaps for the car (not reproductions), freshly re-nickel plated. How much more right could they be?

I was disgusted with the ignorance this showed about the judging, knowledge of the cars, and the failure to follow the correct documentation procedures.

I never took a complaint to the Judging Committee or Steve or anything, it just wouldn’t look right, me being on the national Board and whining. (Guess I’m whining now!)

It didn’t really matter, as the car has already won everything it can win, but it was just the idea of them being so wrong, and me having documentation that they just ignored.

But I am disgusted enough that now, I’m not going to take this car to the Anniversary Meet in Grand Junction in July. Why bother? I’m just going to take my ’33 Driver, for 'Display Only' I guess, and enjoy the scenery on the great tours that will be available there in Colorado.

Grumble, grumble, grumble....

It has been suggested many times that there should be a judging manual for each year.Has been discussed here often.Great example......You will have more fun in Colorado with your '33 also.
More board members should have this experiance

This subject has also been an itchy throat point for me, not really something that I considered resolved either way East of the Mississippi River or West of the Rocky Mountains opinions on the 4 cylinder engine paint. What I call Onan Green or SBC service truck green as is promoted by What I see as East of the Ole Miss.cartel or should it be The Olive Drab as promoted by the West of The Rocky Mountains cartel and the very knowledgable and chief promoter Ray Holland.
Is it possible both are correct? or maybe that only one group is correct? Or even that neither group is correct? I do remain sceptical that provideing a can of paint from one modern vendor against that of another modern vendor is considered iron clad documentation.

I do not believe the same does not applys to the engine color for the early six cylinder engines, I do believe that B. H. is selling the incorrect paint in this case because I , myself, have seen enough NOS GM Chevrolet parts to prove, to my satisfaction, that The Filling Station and Cheves of the Fortys are selling the correct color of paint.
I would like to be as sure about the correct engine color for the 1928 and before engine color.
It seems to me that there is may not be a definitive answer because of a lack of enough iron clad docmentation to make a declaration by the VCCA judging Committee either way for the 28 and back engines. I should hope that the Judging Committee members would go out on a limb if necessary and either declare one shade of color correct or decline to deduct points on the exact engine color for the early 4 cylinder engines paint, just judge on paint quality, unless they find one That is painted Chartruse or Baby blue and anything on either side of the Blue-Green section of the color wheel color wheel. Judging Chairman and Committeee, Please make a decision one way or the other before we get to Grand Junction, please! (Just my opinion) no documentation included....

I do expect someone to jump up and say"That decision has already been made and the color is________"

OK, If that is the case..just the facts, please.

Who/what would be the final authority in the VCCA on the correct engine colors for all years?

Maybe once the color issue is resolved the judging committee could mail out color chips to the chief judge at VCCA meets. IMHO

ChevyGuru: What happened to you during that judging process is nothing new. That same fiasco has been going on for years and it will continue to go on as long as comparison judging is allowed by those in power in the VCCA, and as long as those judging cars are not knowledgeable in what they are doing. Documentation should have the final say, not someone's "opinion" or comparing other cars.

There is a dude on the west coast that has constantly gone through the same problems that you describe above with his 1931 Landau Phaeton. He has the documentation to back up what he has told the judges and they dock him points constantly for items being incorrect when they are correct. Seems like every VCCA sanctioned meet he goes to the same problems develop. I have seen it myself at meets as well. For example, at the national meet in 1986 there were a group of '32's that had the wrong spark plug wires and one that had the correct wires. The judges compared the one '32 to the other cars and since he didn't match all of the others, points were deducted accordingly. This happens time and time again.

Roadster32 can give you some horror stories on the judging process of his fabulous '32. He had the documentation but the judges still wouldn't listen. Points were deducted for various items that were correct. Opinions were flying all over the place....and letters and emails were written between the car owner and the judging committee. This issue was discussed at great length, but not once was the 1932 TA contacted by the judging committee to get his input to settle the issue. What's wrong with that picture?

Then there was a beautiful 1934 sedan in Washington.......same problems and that one turned into a big embarrassment for the VCCA before it was over.

However, I feel that part of the blame for some of these issues should rest with the national board as well. My example would be the unbelievable decision made by the judging committee that the wrong year engine is okay as long as it has the correct cubic inches for the year in question (you knew I was going to bring that one up sooner or later ). This decision sets back the VCCA to the early years as far as I'm concerned and once this decision by the judging committee was presented to the national board it should have been immediately rejected by the board. It wasn't so now this rule stands as part of the judging procedure.

I feel for what you are telling us on this forum since your problem and others like it have been around for years. As far as I'm concerned....documentation and the input from the TA concerned should be the final word. I know the amount of research that Raymondo and the Filling Station did on the correct color for the four cylinder cars, and how a judge can overrule that by using comparison judging on cars with the wrong engine color is beyond me.

All good points, and thank you ALL for your compassion here.

"The Book" says the Tech Advisor IS the final authority- unfortunately, that is a very difficult concept to turn into a reality at a Meet.

I am very familiar with Roadster32's issues a couple of years ago. I was there with him, and I have twisted wrenches on that car, and it is awesome.

Also, I have been to at least 8 or 9 Judging Schools around the Country, and the point has been made in EVERY SINGLE one that 'comparison judging' is a No-No. Still, it goes on.

I think the fundamental problem is the lack of knowledgeable judges at any given Meet. This is a tough one to solve.

For instance, if I am judging at a Meet, I cannot judge a Class that has a car entered in it that I own. That is good. BUT, it results in me being used to judge a Class where I have much less knowledge. For example, I know quite a bit about 1925's now. If my '25 was in a Meet, I would be placed in a Team that was judging, perhaps, Corvairs. I know very little about Corvairs. And visa versa, the Corvair owners might well find themselves judging 4 cylinders, with which they are unfamiliar.

As I say all these things, I do not mean to disrespect the fellows that devote so much time and effort and thought on the Judging Committee. I know most of them, and I know their motivations are unquestionably to make things better, and for the good of the Club. The problems arise on the show field, and trying to make reality conform to the ideals that have been established.