Can someone post the definition of matching numbers? I've been watching auctions on TV and always hear this when they are describing Camaros Corvettes, etc.

Thanks, Jim

Matching numbers mean it still has all the original components that it left the factory with.....Joe

They are usually referring to a car which has the original engine, transmission and differential thar was in the car when it was built by the manufacturer ( Chevrolet ).

dtm

How is that proved? With the build sheet?

in the corvette hobby, "matching #'s" means(to me) all the casting/stamp #'s are the same #'s as the original parts. it usually means the engine case isn't the original but rather has been "restored" such that the pad now contains the machine assembly data and vin derivative identical to that of the original engine case. when one states the engine case is the original, then one is claiming the block is that which was installed on the assembly line. another example would be the ID plates on generators , distributors and starters. one can easily obtain an unstamped repro Delco Remy tag for these pieces and stamp the Delco tag with the # appropriate for the Corvette in question. its usually safe to buy a Vette that is advertised as having its original engine. its risky to buy a "matching #'s" vette.mike

Thanks Guys. Any recommendations for a book or forum that deals with the Corvette hobby for someone who is thinking of jumping in? Too bad we don't have a Corvette forum here on Chevy Chat II.

go to www.ncrs. they have an online store you can purchase the Spec. guide and also the judging manuals for the year vete in question. or email me if its a 1953 thru 1967 vette you're looking at. good luck and beware . mike

Sent you a PM. Thanks for the NCRS site.

Elder,

I’ve been thinking about adding my two cents on your question since you posted it back on Sunday. I’ve kept my lip zipped fearing I’d ramble on too long.

However, I can't keep it zipped any longer, so let me say this. The descriptions provided by Joe and dtm are about as simple and concise a definition as can be written.

Further, let me say, I’m confident you’re in good hands getting help on all this from Mike McCagh. Two of his comments seem “right on” to me. The first one, it’s risky to buy a "matching #'s" vette. And also, in his recent post Mike says, good luck and beware. I totally agree with both of those comments by Mike.

I’m an admitted skeptic, particularly when it comes to the over-used, hack-neyed “term,” numbers matching. I’m absolutely convinced the term is NOT true way more often than it is true. Especially at an auction but also when you're talking to a guy who’s trying to sell you his "numbers matching" car at a “specialty” car dealership or just a regular old guy in his drive-way. It's a "hot" term, so it's used. A lot. As noted, I feel most often it's not true and used just to add "value." Whether it's true or not.

As Mike said, good luck and BEWARE…..

Bill.

To me "Original" & "Matching" numbers means the same thing, It's the way it left the factory. It sound to me that the NCRS rules allow a owner of a Corvette to change block with whatever numbers the owner wants. This allows simple 327 Corvettes to become high dollar 427/435hp cars. With all the other paper work & protect o plates out there, the entire car could be a fake. I'm sorry but I feel this forgery & should be in the same class as conterfitting money. I know it happens in every field of automobiles. It's a buyers beware market out there. Be careful what you buy. If something doesn't look right, walk away. If you're looking for a nice driver, that's another story. The numbers aren't that important. Joe

Well. I have to admit this is a confusing world today as far as cars go. I guess the new term is "born with" refering to components on a vehicle, i.e. engine, transmission, etc. I guess if you're looking at a car using any of the above mentioned terms you better do your homework or hire someone who know the ends & outs of the counterfeiting business. You wouldn't want to spend 100k on a car that's worth 25k Jerry McNeish is the contact for first gen. Camaros.....Joe

I always believed "matching numbers" meant the components were the "original" components to the vehicle .... the components in the vehicle when it was born.

Much to my dismay, I became aware that "matching nembers" meant the correct "casting" numbers for that particular year vehicle ..... nothing tied in to the "originality" of that specific vehicle.

So, a guy can have a "matching numbers" vehicle by sifting through bone yards and finding certain casting numbers ..... a hoax, in my humble opinion.

Bob

Thanks all for your comments so far. I always thought matching numbers meant there was a serial number (the VIN?) that would prove the part was original to the car.

It would seem we can't rely on someone stating the car is all original, either, as there is no way to prove it. With C2's fetching so much, it seems they are all "Matching Numbers" and "beautifully restored to original condition."

I'm going to include C4's in my search. At least there are some of these out there that are worn out, in need of restoration, and fairly inexpensive. And they look good. I never fell in love with the C3's, I guess because Chevy dumped the C2 design for them. A friend's dad bought a new C3 and I was in shock-but at least he let us borrow it.

Yes, it does seem they are all matching numbers cars....at least according to the sellers. Hence my emphasis of Mike McCagh's warning....BEWARE.

Good time to bring in an expert or do a lot of research, or BOTH.

Or just stay the heck out of that BS game and look for/buy a nice looking, good driving one where the seller says it has a 350 crate motor and a later 4 speed (etc. etc.). You'll likely spend a lot less money and have just as much fun with a Corvette that isn't reported to be original, matching numbers, etc. etc.

Good luck in your search....

Bill.

Jim: Here is a good form for corvettes. www.corvetteactioncenter.com
If you are looking for a C-2 corvette I have 1966 sting ray coupe for sale. It was appraised at the end of may 2010 for 69,010.00. It has the 327/300 engine a/t. No way of knowing if it's matching numbers. Looking for best REASONABLE offer ?

I couldn't agree more. Thanks Bill.

I'll keep it in mind. 69K is a good reason to look at C4's.

C5's are not that much more money and a lot more car. We have had both.

if a vette is presented for NCRS judging and it can be determined the vette left st louis with a 327 engine but now has a cloned 427 engine, the ncrs rules are vary harsh and in most cases the owner is asked to remove the counterfieted vette from the judging field. same goes for vettes that have had their trim tags replaced with one that chages the options to more desirable ones. NCRS has never encouraged owners to chage the 327 to 427. howver, if an original 67 vette left st louis with a 427/435 engine that threw a rod in 1975, , ncrs will judge said vette with a replacement engine with a minor deduct for stamp pad abnormalities(most ofter its broach marks that are nor typical factory broach marks). mike

Very interesting posts.
I purchased my 68 Camaro knowing that I wanted a driver Camaro with a 350 4spd. Period. What I found and bought was a car advertised as a SS/rs. Through extensive research on the Camaro Research Group web site, as well as Year One, and other respected sites, I found my car to have stamped dates close to one another. Dirty and rusted, the correct number of rear springs, correct "E" for Eaton 3:31 posi rear end, brake line valve, and other bolt holes in the engine compartment that the rs should have but the headlight vacuum parts are missing.
However, I have no documentation or build sheet. With that in mind I will not say that it's a "matching numbers car".
My Camaro was a garaged drag car for years which helped save the original fenders and further abuse to the interior. Most of the interior was stored away.

These cars of the muscle car era were used and abused back in the day. Track and street racing took a toll on these cars. My car has a replacement 4spd Muncie case due to a previous owner blowing the trans. Try and find an original matching date Muncie case today and you will know why the guy replaced my casing with an Eco-Tech casing.

Buyer beware when dealing with muscle cars. The all original cars are very rare indeed.

RayG

So, I've been shopping Corvettes for the last month. 1968 to 2011. Not a bad way to spend the afternoon. Joined NCRS and looked through that site. Got a question: What is the stamp pad? What comes to mind is the ground smooth spot on a motor where the serial number is stamped. Is that correct? What else should be there?

Right now, I've centered my search on C3's. Mostly because they're smog exempt and relatively inexpensive at the moment. You know what bugs me about a crate engine? When I was in high school in the sixties, guys would swap engines (my brother was one) and they'd have continuous trouble after that... motor mounts would fail, exhaust would come loose at the motor, motor and transmission didn't meet so the clutch would wear out frequently.

Anyway, the search goes on....

the stamp pad is located on the engine case, pass side, just in front of the bottom of the pass side head when installed. one must look for the factory horizontal broach marks which, as far as i'm concerned are impossible to duplicate after the fact(in spite of what used engine suppliers will tell you). the early c-3, esp the mark IV engines, have been on the scene with restamped engine for at least 30 years. typically, a c-3 that's missing its original engine, will have a restamped big block installed which most likely was installed at the factory in a pass car chevy of that era. since a pass car machine assembly data and vin # differ from the recipient c-3, the pass car engine is broached/decked to remove the pass car stampings(which removes the factory horizontal broach marks). The folks that rent out stamps to re-stamp a chevy engine are gettting extremely good at duplicating the size, font etc of original vette stamps. its the horizontal factory broach marks that can't , in my opinion, be duplicated exactly. good luck in your search and welcome to NCRS. their technical dicussion board offers a wealth of knowledge. mike

Thanks all.

I took the plunge on a 1969 Coupe with a 350 crate engine. Its a long distance purchase so I gotta hold my breath for a week or two.

Jim

Sorry, I never got back to this board. Been enjoying my Daytona Yellow 69 C3 w/ZZ4 Crate Motor. Joined NCRS and C3VR which is where I post my questions.