Okay guys got a problem to discuss with y'all.

On recent 4 cylinder tour to Kalispell, MT area, I experienced a problem that also happened once on a previous pre-29 Tour in Colorado. Seems that on long (several miles) slow upgrades my '28 Chevy (stock engine, etc., except for new modern 6 volt coil and electronic ignition module in distributor) will quit running. It acts as if the ignition switch is turned off. There is no spark at the plugs. After pouring water on the coil, the engine starts like nothing happened and will run without problems. [As you can imagine it took me a while to come up with a solution the first time it happened.] Because of traffic, road construction it happened three times climbing the "Going to the Sun Highway" going from West to East. Then once more while climbing a looooong upgrade outside of St. Marys. Each time pouring water on the coil resulted in nearly immediate starting and smooth running.

Same thing happened with point distributor last year and a different modern coil so don't think the distributor was the cause.

FYI, the coil is mounted in the original position on the plate that holds the oil filter on passenger side of engine. There is a 2+" space between coil and engine block. There is nothing to block air from circulating past the coil.

This was discussed during the technical seminar at the tour without any solution. One volunteered to put the offending coil in an oven at various temperatures, then measure the continuity. Since then I received and email stating that copper wire increased resistance 0.4% for each degree Celsius rise in temperature. If we speculate a 80-100 degree temperature rise that would be a 32-40% reduction in current through the coil. Could that be enough to reduce the spark? Or is the construction such that a connection opens? Or ?

Yes I know that pouring water on a coil is not something that is regularly done. In fact most try to keep the coil dry.

Comments?

I was at that same seminar, but was not able to hear all the suggestions. It was not clear to me as to the characteristics of the modern coil you are using. I suggest you use a coil and condenser as specified for the 1954 Chevrolet engine. Note on the coil whether it says "internal" or "external" resister.

Report back here with the results.

You would have had more fun if you had returned back over the "Going to the Sun Highway" with us. There was only one 5 minute wait at the one way traffic spot. We arrived at about the same time at the West entrance as the crew that took the long way around.

Was the coil that you used one that is a "Flamethrower" that matches the module?

I don't know if your coil is mounted horizontally or vertically, but if it is vertical perhaps you can fashion a "water bath" from a plastic bottle that hangs over the coil and suspends the coil in it. That is not a fix but it might work as an emergency solution on a trip. Beamer

Ray,
We had been one of the last to arrive for Lunch. A few decided to go around instead of back over the pass. Since East to West is the easy climb am sure it would have been easier and faster, even with the construction. Since you and Verlyn were going over I decided to ride drag on the other herd. Besides had to purchase a few pies at the Park Cafe in St. Marys (have been buying pies there for many years, yum), then followed Gordy back. Gordy's car does not climb well at all. We went up several grades at ~10 mph. I could have pulled them at that speed in third but used second to get some more cooling. It is the slow speed climbing that heats the coil and causes the failure. If I am not following someone that is slower I don't seem to have a problem. Did not get back to the hotel until after 8PM. The first to go around arrived more than an hour before we did.

I don't know much about the coil. It was supplied by the people who built the electronic ignition I was testing. Felt that I needed to use their stuff during the test. I have been told to use an VW coil and '54 Chevy coil. All places I have checked list their 6 volt coils for '54 Chevys. Since I don't have any mountains within ~800 miles from my home don't think it will be a problem in the future. It will be interesting to find out what Bob finds in his oven test.

I am sure you have thought of this, but could the problem be with the electronic ignition section of the setup and not the coil?

Since I had the problem with another modern coil last year (had a points type distributor), I didn't feel that the problem was the electronic module in this case. And when problem was corrected by pouring cool water on the coil on four occasions, it basically proved to me that it was the coil that was the culprit. I am not a real fan of the electronic module but agreed to test it. I had the point distributor in the trunk just in case.

I blew an Pertronix electronic module by using a faulty coil.Our dealer replaced the module free of charge and said i must not use a cheapo coil and don't ever start with a booster battery.

Hey Chippy Dippy! How did you make out on your coil problem?

I guess your test report will condem the "HOT coil" furnished with the module. Does the module fit in the stock Delco Remy 4 cylinder distributor & rotor, cap?, without mechanical modification (drilling , milling)?

It may be that the concentration of high resistance windings in a confined space may be the cause. I wonder if an old aluminum finned coil cover like we used back in the 60s and 70 would be in order? I haven't seen one in years.
I have a new Perftronics 45K volt "Flame Thrower" for our 68, never put either it or the IgnitorII module (91181). I read that the most benefit is in the 3,000-5,000 RPM range and decided the effect isn't worth the effort for a VCCA tour car. I keep a spare set of points & condenser, rotor, coil and cap in the trunk for a spare and it has served me well. I replaced the original combination points and condenser on a tour in Fort Worth......Well I dug out the parts and handed them to the three other V/8 gurus, that swarmed all over the engine, changeing out coil, "not the coil!", the high tension coil lead, "it isn't the coil wire!" The rotor and points-condenser, Walla! that is the problem. Set the dwell with a dwell meter, I usually just do the original method with a long handled flex allen screw distributot tool, thru the window.I did furnish hand cleaner and paper towels for cleanups. And......The 327 went VAROOMM! When I got home I stocked up on replacement parts, bottled water and hand cleaner and Wipes! You gotta treat them fast working Gurus right!

Installed a Pertronix in my 1970 Impala when I had the car and the Pertronix lasted one week!! It left my daughter and I stranded downtown on a Friday evening at 5:30, first in line at a red light on a main boulevard. Several dudes got out of their cars and helped us push the '70 Impala through the intersection to a business parking lot up the street. Had a real traffic jam going there for awhile. At any rate, never ever had that problem with the point system. I would never go to the Pertronix module again.

The one major point to remember with a Pertronix system is that the OHMS of the coil is critical. If you half-a** the installation without getting the appropriate coil, you may very smoke the module very quickly. I think it's supposed to be 1.5 ohms, but regardless, the Pertronix coil has the correct impedance with it's own coil. I have a 6 volt positive ground setup and had some issues until I caved in and purchased a Flamethrower and everything has been fine for quite some time now.

Update!
Have had several email discussions with the module supplier. Seems that hot coil problems have been experienced before. He is of the opinion that an external resistor will solve the problem. Now if I can just get the problem to happen again, add the resistor and then retrace the route so I can be relatively sure that it is a solution?

Mack, The module attaches to a plate that replaces the point plate in the distributor. Just screws in place. Then the magnets are in a piece that slips over the distributor cam. Really slick how it is set up.

Hey Chip,

But that does not explain to my why you had that problem with a standard point's setup.

Question, do you have a oil filter on your car or just a pipe by pass?

Bruce

Bruce,
I don't think that the points or module are much different in causing the problem. I think it is the construction of the modern coils.

The explanation I got from the module suppler is: "I am not sure what happens in the coil when it gets hot. I have torn them apart to no avail. There is not a thermal switch of any type. The only thing I can think of that would cause it would be the wires expand and push the dielectric oil that insulates the wires out of the way and they touch each other, causing a short. This would cause low voltage miss or complete stoppage of the spark. When the coil is cooled the primary wires shrink and the insulating oil flows between them again."

"The external ballast resistor should cure the problem by removing the heat from the coil. In order for it to work properly it should be used with a coil like the VW coil, If I remember correctly it has 0.45 Ohm's resistance and would work with a 1.0 Ohm resistor. The VW coil by itself would provide too much voltage to the module. They are also the main cause of points and condensers failing very quickly. Good hot spark, but not for long. I do not have a VW coil here, if you have one it would be good to try it. If not I will try to pick one up local. The main thing is we wind up with close to 1.5 Ohms resistance give or take a couple tenths."

I have measured the offending modern coils and get ~1.1 ohms resistance. Have not yet tried an NOS original coil that I have measured at approximate the same resistance. Doubt that I will have the problem again unless it is with prolonged idling or slow speed (parade) and our summer 95 deg summer days. I don't plan to climb the Rocky Mountains again for over a year. Also don't expect to follow really slow vehicles up loooong steeeeeep grades any time soon. The highest point in our county is the top of a bridge over the intercoastal waterway and it is less than a mile long so, is not a good test. Maybe I could try idling in first gear to the top to simulate the conditions in Glacier.

The Coupe has a bypass and not the oil filter installed.

Hey Chip,

I might be able to find a 6 volt VW coil for you if you want, it would be used.

The reason I was asking about the oil filter, maybe the oil is working as a coolant in some way? Taking heat away from the coil?

Bruce,
I would expect that the oil filter would provide more heat than cooling. Have never tried to get pan temperature so I could tell for sure. Besides the metal surface is exposed to more cooling air without the filter in place.

I've got a pertronix set-up on a f**d. I had numerous problems, no spark, wouldn't start at times. I got a good tech guy and he told me to ground the distributor with a wire. I did this and the thing has worked great for over a year. Don