I am looking for someone that has one of these cars!!, I have mine all restored but it seems that there is a different way that that the trim is put on, I have mine on the upper, but I just saw one that was on both the upper and lower part of the body, of course it is the Org color, crockett brown and beige trim. can any one help, Mike .ccr7

Mike...Beautiful looking car! I'm not sure which trim pieces you are referring to as being your problem... Maybe posting some pictures would help us all out. Is it a specific to the convertible Landeau, or would Landeau Sedan be the same?? I know of another member in the Southern Ontario Region that has the same car, but painted in different (Canadian) colours. I'm not sure If he is on-line, but I could do some leg work, and get you a phone # or address if you get no other responses. His name is Gary VanDyken, and I'm not sure if he still owns his '29, as I have not been a member of the region for the past 10 years.

Not sure what you mean either, but, the Filling Station has part 357124, which is described as "PAINT INSTRUCTION DRAWING
Job #8910 - 12" X 18"
These drawings are digitally enhanced reproductions of the factory drawings used by Chevrolet. Each drawing shows the locaction of paint colors on the body. Pinstripe details are also shown and include: location and thickness of the pinstripes. Other details listed are dates when the drawings were modified and what was modified. If you are doing a show car or just trying to make your restoration as accurate as possible, you need this drawing. Each drawing is printed on 12X18" paper, nice enough that it could be framed. (Not all body styles are available)." for 1929-30 Imperial Sedan

And here's an example of your car (I think) on Classic Chevy's page.

http://www.classicchevyrestorations.com/Home_Page.php

Here are a couple of pictures of the one here in the collection.




I d not know if it is correct or not. Andy.

Andy, in June I "mostly" finished my 29 Imperial Landau (IL). Maybe I can help you, but as indicated above, I need to know what trim you want to work with.

After reviewing the info that I have , I believe(unsure) there should not be a sill moulding stripe or color change.

Thanks, but this one will stay the way it is. It is Mike at the top of the post that was wondering what was correct. I am assuming that he is talking about the sill moulding.

Thanks for all the imput, I think I have a good Idea what needs to be done ,you showed me the car with the stripe on the bottm accent line it was the last one shown, but they said they were not sure if it was right, well I pretty sure it is, thanks alot for all your help, Mike, CCR7.

Andy I am in the process of restoring the same car. Can you please contact me at (323)395-4188 . I have alot of questions like I am looking for the paint formula for the Crockett Brown etc.. Thanks Robert

I bought my 29 Imperial Landau paint from this vender supporttcpglobal. Great sevice, and all colors needed including pinstrip.

These are great looking cars. I know the correct 29 wire wheels are difficult; at best; to find. Has anyone see a 29 Imperital Landau with Wire Wheels before. I would think they would be painted the stripeing color. I'll bet that would really set that body style off as a real beauty !!

Also, I know the numbers produced are some what controversial and have been discussed at length here and for years. Has there ever been an attempt to create a 29 Imperial Landau Registry to document SN's and any other important numbers ?

Do you have a phone number for the vendorsupporttcpglobal. Thanks for the information. I really appreciate it .

858-909-2110

Thanks for the phone number for the paint. CuChiRvn I see that you have the same car an live in Norco California. I live in Monterey Park Calif. not far from you and would love to have the opportunity to visit you to see your car. My name is Robert and my phone number is (323) 395-4188. Please let me know. Thanks again.

Would love to meet. I cannot figure how to get an avatar with my signature because the pictures I have are to "large". Send me an email or call:

Ed
951-734-3857
edhatzenbuhlersbcglobal

Quick lesson on making picture smaller. Open it with paint (under accessories on your program menu). Save with a new name. Then use image/resize from the menu to make it smaller. Or email it to me and I'll do it. Takes only a minute or two.
Hey, I live in Temple City with my '29 4-door.

Jim, how small must the picture be?

Hi, COLOR? of the dash plate around the gauges, were they all one or different. I have seen 3 different ones, PLMK, MIKE CCR7

Mine's 100x75 pixels or so but I notice another 4k. If you right click on an avatar, and select properties, it will show how big it is. Wait, I use Firefox in Windows Vista, don't know for sure about any others.

How did I miss this post for so long?

Hi Ed - The avatar pic has to be less than 100X90 pixels. I make mine 99X89.

Roger

Does anyone really know how many are really left?? there were only 294 made!!

There were a lot more made than 294! Based on the body numbers of the cars that still exist (and there are a lot of them), it appears that probably in access of 8,000 were made, maybe even a lot more given the survival rate of the convertible landau. Considering the number of these cars showing up each year, which adds to the already high survival rate, the 294 figure is completely false.

Pardon the lenght of this reply.

The issue of Imperial landau production numbers just keeps coming up. It’s cold today, so let’s get our blood running.

Why are so many left, if so few were produced? Maybe the answer is in the question. There were few triple 5 convertibles, and Nomads, but relative to production, there are many today. Further, folks who bought “unique” cars, both now and then, knew what they had. Having bought something out of the ordinarily I suspect 1929 buyers, just like today’s, took a little better care of there car than the next person. They probably also passed the car along with a story that it was “different”. Pre WWII was hard on cars, but once the war started any car was kept running because there were no new supplies. A little extra pre-war care, plus war demands to hold and repair, along with an understanding that the Imperial Landau was “limited” could explain why there are some left. Having this as a preamble, let’s go back through our past posts and see where this discussion leads.

I stared a long discussion in February 2009 when I joined into a discussion about production numbers. That discussion follows. I have edited some of the contributions. I edited just to limit this post, if I cut something I should have included please add that with any reply. The edits are not intended to be one sided.

I wrote:
My IL Body Number is 1098. Chevy people say the reason the numbers do not stop at 300 is that these cars and Cabriolets are all in a one series -- something about the Cleveland plant and cloth tops. Clearly no one has the "FACTS", so arguing is not a solution.
However, one way to use this issue as a benefit for us all, would be to have this website put up an Excel spreadsheet for all to list our vehicles. A spreadsheet by year would thereby get not only a Club inventory, but also link similar car owners for information purposes.


JunkYardDog, your reply to this was:
You are getting some incorrect information. First, there was no Cleveland plant in 1929. There were only nine plants in 1929 and they were; Atlanta, Buffalo, Flint, Janesville, Kansas City, Norwood, Oakland, St. Louis, and Tarrytown. If you still have your car serial number plate, look there and it will indicate in which factory your car was made.

Second, all models of 1929 Chevrolets were under one series...the International Series "AC". However, each individual model had its own job number and the cabriolet and the convertible landau were not combined together. The cabriolet has its own job number of 8890 and the convertible landau is 8860. There were 45,986 cabriolets made under the job number of 8890 in 1929.


Pre25Chevy4 answered:
Gene - The Cleveland Fisher Body plant on Coit Road supplied - Chevrolet closed bodies to the Tarrytown while the body plant got started there in 1924-25 period.
Fisher Body Ohio Company, E. 140th and Coit Road, Cleveland, Ohio. Incorporated in 1920 for $10 million to build 5 story $350,000 Fisher Body Plant with 1,500,000 sq ft to supplied the Chandler car. It opened June 1921 and built the first Chevrolet Sedan body the night before Thanksgiving, 1921. By 1924 the employment was 7,000 and producing 600 bodies daily. Over the years the Cleveland plant was used to build the low production bodies like the soft top, roll-up windows, 1928 Chevrolet Convertible, the 1929 Imperial Landau and Cabriolet [blank plant code] the 1955-57 Nomad [plant code CL], and the Cadillac Eldorados [plant Code EP?] It was a metal fabrication plant when closed in August 1983.

Skip - I would say the IL with body number of "__1098" is an example of a Cleveland built Job No. 8860 with a blank plant code. This IL body would have been ship to one of the 9 USA assembly plants for mounting on the chassis. Since the Fisher Cleveland plant was not under the influence of the next store Chevrolet plant, I think it is possible that Cleveland used the same series of number sequence for both 8860 and 8890 production. That is the next Body No. 1099 could have been a Job No. 8890.
KenK



JunkYardDog, your reply to this was:

Hi Ken! Thanks for stepping into this discussion....I was hoping that you would since you have a lot of rare and obscure Chevrolet information in your collection and much knowledge regarding early Chevrolet cars and production.

You are correct about the Fisher Body Cleveland plant being a subsidiary plant that made various Fisher Bodies. Even though the Fisher Body Cleveland plant was not one of the nine production factories, I should have considered the Cleveland plant making various individual bodies for the nine factories. Excellent point about the Fisher Body plant in Cleveland!

Assuming it's possible that both the cabriolet and the convertible landau phaeton had their body numbers combined together in sequence, but with different job numbers, how would the total production figures for both the 8860 and the 8890 be determined? Further adding to the confusion, why would the Fisher plant in Cleveland combine the two body numbers under separate job numbers when on the other Fisher Body models the body number determines the number of the run of that particular job number? Combining the body numbers with two separate job numbers sure makes it difficult to determine how many of each body were made. When viewing the body number vs. the job number, under a combined body number sequence the body number for that job number would appear to be false. For example, Mike's body number of 8101 indicates that for his job number there were 8,101 IL's made up to that point.....but in reality that body number of 8,101 could actually mean that his car is only the 250th IL made instead.

Do you have any records showing the individual production of each of these bodies either in the nine factories or in the Fisher Body Cleveland plant or anything that documents that the body numbers were combined? It would be great if we can prove or disprove the published 300 production figure for the IL. Anything that you can supply to finally solve this mystery would be extremely helpful, since this discussion regarding the total number of IL's made has been going on for years.

As you know there are many of us that discount the 300 published figure since there are just too many of the convertible landaus surviving to date. In dissecting the production figures as Gene has done in his posting, could there have been as many as 21,000 plus IL's made? What is your opinion on the total production of the convertible landaus manufactured?

End of prior posts.

JunkYardDog, I do not see a reply to your request of pre25Chevy4, maybe he can add more now. However, as I read your replies it appeared to me you were no longer positive that all the original Chevrolet and anecdotal documents were not correct.

I suspect we can all agree that how many Imperial Landaus were built pales in importance to the number that have been preserved and restored. However, I for one would appreciate VCCA putting together an inventory of ALL member cars, so we can at least refer to that list for help. Such a list would also provide a census for the Club to track changes over time, thereby making Club future initiatives responsive to members.

OK, JunkYardDog, I am ready and will appreciate your thoughts.

Yes, it sure would be nice to definitely put the production figures for the 1929 convertible landau to rest with a definitive total, especially since several fellows who own that model would like their cars to be one of "294" or one of "300", and I don't blame them...I would too! Also, I find that this is an interesting and informative debate.

As you know, many of us dispute the published 294 or the 300 production figures (which one is it....294 or 300? No one seems to know that either) because of the high survival rate. And, because of the different job numbers between the convertible landau and the cabriolet, combining the body numbers of each is a plausible theory, but none of that information apparently has been documented....as of yet anyway. Assuming that was true however, and based on the production report that 45,986 cabriolets were made in 1929, it could have been possible that thousands of convertible landaus were intermingled with the total combined production of the cabriolet and the convertible landau, but without documentation we will never know. Also, if the body numbers were combined between the cabriolet and the convertible landau, how would it be determined that only 300 convertible landus were made?

The survival percentage of that particular model is probably not much different from any of the other Chevrolet models of the same year. There are many variables that affect the survival rate of vehicles in that period of time. Usually, the more of a particular model that was manufactured the higher the number of the cars to survive. Also, I doubt if each and every owner of a convertible landau paid any more attention to that vehicle than any other vehicle from a maintenance standpoint. It was the depression and money for tires and other luxuries was hard to come by. Most of the cars back then endured winters with rain and snow and roads made of dirt. Due to the nature of the convertible landau it probably deteriorated just as fast as any other wood bodied car. No doubt, there were exceptions however. Besides, how many of the convertible landau owners knew how many of that model were manufactured and how many owners even cared since the car was just basic "transportation" to them?

Over the years I have physically seen many convertible landaus.....maybe even more than cabriolets. And, over the past few years more convertible landaus seem to be showing up constantly indicating a higher production rate than the 294 or the 300 rumored.

A spread sheet documenting the job number and the body number of every convertible landau existing would definitely give us an overall picture of the entire total, and I, for one, would be extremely interested in the results...and I'm sure others would be too. It would be great if the 300 production figure could definitely be documented and I would support that production number if it could be proven.

Hopefully, Ken K. can come up with the desired documentation listing each convertible landau by job number and by body number and whether or not the body numbers were combined. That way we will all know exactly how many were made originally. Unfortunately, if the body numbers of the cabriolet and the convertible landau were, in fact, combined, then we may never know the exact number of convertible landaus that were produced.

As a side note....back in 1968 a friend of mine had a basket case 1929 convertible landau sitting on a pallet in his warehouse. The landau was complete. The car was for sale, and the asking price was $400. Anyway, I don't know why, but I didn't buy the car and it was finally sold and it went to California. Maybe it is your car? Every time I think about that car I kick myself for not buying it!

An interesting arguement... here's my uneducated thoughts!

The first time I heard of this number was through George Dammon's book "Sixty Years of Chevrolet" Not to say that his research was lacking or incorrect, but I wonder now if he took his production quote from the owner of the car pictured, and due to lack of any other paperwork, published it. The book became the hit that it was,and a lot of facts in that book became accepted knowledge. The car was certainly rare enough that at the time it would have been difficult to find other owners to verify the fact. Another example of error in the book is the survival rate of '42 convertibles. Since it was claimed that only one existed, every other one 'discovered' became 'one of two known'!! Although the car is still exceptionaly rare it would be interesting to know how many exist today for sure.

Secondly, as for the survival rates of '29 Landeau Convertibles compared to sedans... I think the rate would be higher as a percentage of production based on the fact it was a convertible. Most convertible sales occur in the southern states, far from winters road salts and rust.

For looking up production figures, are there any parts specific to the convertible that were ordered through outside suppliers? Was the car a sales success...ie would Chevrolet order thousands of top irons, sell 300 cars, and be hung with all the unused parts? Or would the parts be ordered as needed? If we could establish that GM bought X number of parts it could lead to a production number.

Those are all very good points and they should be considered as part of the discussion.

I agree that Chevrolet would not have produced or purchased thousands of one type of part for the convertible landau and then only build 300 cars.

Another good point is the 300 production figure shown in George Dammann's book "Sixty Years of Chevrolet" as you mentioned. Like you, I have never seen that production figure previous to the publishing of his book. Unfortunately, many errors that have been in print have become "gospel" over the years and his production figure of 300 could be one of them.

Even George Dammann was surprised at the survival rate of the convertible landau when the book was published back in 1972. He states: "Surprisingly, though only 300 were built, there are at least 16 still known to be in existence." Again, that was back in 1972 and over the years many more than 16 of these vehicles have surfaced. If George thought that 16 was a lot back in 1972, he would be totally amazed to see how many are actually around today.

1929 Imperial Landau-Fisher Job#8860 -start prod. Dec '28–$725
1929 Imperial Sedan–Fisher Job#8910 – start prod. Jan/Feb '29 $695 The only 1929 production records I have seen are for the first month of production December 1928.Flint Production Record [source is Kettering/GMI Archives in Flint] for the month of December 1928 shows 202 1929 Imperial Landau cars built in Flint Plant Code #1 with – 183 sold with 19 on hand as of Jan 1, 1929.As George D. tells us the 1929 IL was a dumb idea with the several thousand Chevrolet not ordering as many as plan for January Winter delivery. In mid January it was announced the IL would be replaced by the Imperial Sedan which would be $30 less money. What this tells me George must have found production records for say only one plant and the 294 and 300 represents about 1 1/2 to 2 months for the IL early production. 300 x 9 plants US = 2700 units x 1% = est. 27 left.

Was the car built in all of the factories? Common sense would say to build the car in one factory, as 300 units is only a days production! It would be interesting to see some serial #'s of the survivors, and see how many factories they come from. Were they built in Canada?

One must acknowledge that even a bit extreme to the other end of the spectrum, Of 300 1953 corvettes built,I believe over 100 documented cars exist today.

Ken: I don't know the exact number since I have lost count, but over the years I have seen a lot of convertible landaus myself. Given the amount that I have seen existing, your production figure of 2,700 units is probably way more realistic than the 300 figure promoted by George Dammann. However, we still don't know for sure if the cabriolet and the convertible landau body numbers were combined. If they were not combined, then we still have the issue of some of the existing convertible landau body numbers that exceed the 8,000 figure.

Thanks for your valuable input to this discussion....it is most appreciated!

I think this is an excellent example of Chevrolet lovers’ trying to find the facts within Chevy history. We may never know the true number, but if we keep picking maybe we can get a consensus.

Pre25Chevy4 thank you for adding facts to this subject. You mention that during January 1929, after one month of production, George Dell announced that the Imperial Landau was a bad idea and it would be replace by the Imperial Sedan. Maybe that is what happened. Management decided to stop production resulting in only one or two month’s production, hence a total number of about 300.

The 1972 book, is also interesting to me, because it was published seven years after I bough my car. Accordingly, the book could not have been the source of information for the person from whom I bought my car. Notwithstanding the time difference between when I bough and the book was available, the person I bought from said the same thing … 300 produced.

That seller also said something, that I suspect will muddy our waters. The seller told me the car was rare, only 300 built, but also that the limit in production was part of six cylinder introduction. I was told every “Authorized” Chevrolet dealer received one Imperial Landau to help promote the new six. I have no idea how many Authorized Chevrolet dealers there were in 1929, but a good number would be interesting to know.

Finally, I have a picture of a 1929 Imperial Landau newspaper or magazine ad, which features comedians Laurel and Hardy. Stretching a bunch I know, but would such an ad lend any information about the cars being limited production and a showroom attracter?

Ken brings up a good point about the 9 factories which would disprove the 300 figure alone.

On the dealerships back in 1929, I don't know the exact number (maybe Ken can help us out on that as well) but I would guess that there were probably more than 300 Chevrolet dealerships. However, it would be great to know the exact number of dealerships in 1929.

I can add a bit of family history to this discussion. The first Chevrolet purchased in our family was indeed a new '29 Imperial Landau Sedan from the Chevy dealer in Marshall Michigan. It was owned for approximately six months before being traded on a Marmon Sedan. My grandmother told me that it was the worst car they ever owned and they took it back to the dealer because "the cylinders were bored on the bias". Now you non-seamstress people will not understand the quote. Translated into automotive vernacular it meant that the engine burned large quantities of oil because the cylinders were not machined correctly.

As an additional comment my father hated the Marmon because in the winter he had to take a coal bucket put in a few pieces of burning coal from the stoker furnace take them outside, put them into a metal pan and slide it under the engine of the Marmon. That way after about 1/2 hour the oil was warm enough so the engine would turn over fast enough to start and he could be driven to school.

Going back to my Pontiac History book I found-
Pontiac called it a Landau Sedan. It had the same body as a Chevrolet. Pontiac introduced it in Jan. 1929 in their 2nd design series.. There was an early 1st design 1929 Pontiac which was basically a 1928.
The 2nd design 1929 Pontiacs assembled from Jan through March had horizontal hood louvers. Due to crackking problems the went to the verticle louver in April. The history book shows owners Landau Sedans with both horizontal and verticles louvers. Also states the Landau Sedan was produced through Aug. of 1929, the balance of the Pontiac 1929 cars went to November.
About 180,000 1929 Pontiacs (2 design) were made.

The number of Chevrolet dealers in 1929 were probably at a record high. Sales were way up and every little town had a Chevrolet dealer. Probably at least one third were closed by 1932.

The majority of 1929 Chevrolets were scraped by 1941 and a model with a folding top that required expensive up-keep would have been the first to go. As early as 1938 the 1929 Chevrolet was listed in the back of the NADA used car guide with no value listed due to its low value. At that time the retail price of a 1930 Chevrolet was less than $100.00.

My thoughts are that the Chevrolet was produced at the same time the Pontiac was and the total number would have been in the thousands, and the number I saw on the streets in this city during WWII would back-up my thoughts.

If only 300 were made there would be next to none surviving today. Believe me that body style or even a 1929 Chevrolet meant nothing special to people in 1941. They were just another old car known for breaking rear axles.

Dear Chevegene,

I am new to this... so pardon me ... my first post. Noticed you are in WI so maybe you can recommend where to get the 600 weight trans oil locally? Have a 1929 4 door has not been running for 30 years... in Mequon. Am going to try to start it tomorrow!!

Also... How do I find a 1929 drive shaft?
Tim Lynch
tlynchmcw.edu

Hi there and welcome to Chevy Chatter II! Glad to have you with us!

For 600W oil go here: www.fillingstation.com. They have it and you can purchase the oil on line.

For a 1929 drive shaft, you can place an ad in the "Parts Wanted" section of Chevy Chatter II, or you can join the VCCA and place an ad for free in their monthly magazine the Generator & Distributor.

Tlynch.
What sort of checking and preparation have you carried out prior to starting an engine which hasn't run for such a long time?

1929 drive shafts are available new from Billypossom.
click on this link it will take you to there website.
http://www.billypossum.com/C&P_Catalog/C&P_Catalog_rev_031225.htm

C&P Automotive is an excellent place to purchase parts for your 1929. So is Gary Wallace. Here is his web site:

http://www.20schevyparts.com/

Thank you. I am overwhelmed at all the good suggestions... got more information in one posting that I got in years.

Tried unsuccessfully to start it today after lossening up the pistons with oil for a few weeks. Found 4 valve rods are stuck down. Sprayed under each boot with wd 40 and ?? hope they loosen up??

Tim


ps ... I don't really know where I should be asking questions.... the web site looks pretty complicated. Thank you all for the help.
VCCA 045819

...So you found some stuck valves, not unusual for one that has not been running for some time. I would say that you might try some PB Blaster penetrating fluid it will help dissolve the rust holding the valve inside the guides. without turning the engine over any more I remove the rockers and shafts check out all the pushrods and without taking the valve keepers off spray the PB Blaster on the valve springs and valve shafts then tap the valves with a deadblow or a brass hammer and get them freed up. after a week or so of soaking and tapping usually if the valves are servicable they will free up, if not pull the head, then pull the valve keepers and do a good inspection of the valves and head maybe do a valve job or take the head to a automotive machine shop for a rebuild. While the head is off get the carb cleaned up and a good kit installed.

By the way I checked your VCCA membership status and you now have VCCA Members only forum access.

Tim, you're asking your questions in the right place. But when you come onto the website if you click on "1929-1932", then click on "New Topic", it will open up a new thread for you to ask your question. Otherwise, your posting will be added onto whatever thread you have open, which may be a completely different topic (as it did with your last one, which was added to a thread about the Imperial Landau body style). Hope that helps. Welcome to Chevy Chatter II!

All the Best,

Chip

I just presumed on my part that the 1929 Convertible Landau Sedan was discontinued in the January-February 1929 time period after building 202 units in December in Flint. This afternoon I tried to find out more data on when the Convertible Landau Sedan, Fisher Body Job No. 8860, was actually replaced in production with the 1929 Imperial Sedan, Fisher Body No. 8910, in mid July 1929. The last listing I found of the Convertible Landau Sedan was in the June 8th issue of The Literary Digest that reported over 600,000 6 cylinders sold in less then 5 months. This is also the last advert for the Sport Cabriolet which was illustrated with the top down at the beach in “Trianon Blue” color. The Literary Digest for July 6, 1929 announced the 900,000 6 cyl was sold, with the Imperial Sedan and Sport Coupe listed. Then in several newspaper adverts it was announced that the 1,000,000 6 cyl was built on Aug 5 in Flint and it was an Imperial Sedan which had just gone into production a few week before. Then I found an newspaper advert for Saturday August 3rd that announced the 950,000 6 cyl sold and two distinguished new models – the Imperial Sedan and the Sport Coupe [replaced the Sport Cabriolet which was not offered until the 1931 models.] So from the above it looks like the Convertible Landau Sedan was build into June 1929. On August 3rd it stated that samples would be sent to the 5000 Chevrolet dealers. Now the 8,000 number seems possible.
kenK

Ken: Thanks to your research and from what you posted above, it definitely appears now that the body numbers between the cabriolet and the convertible landau were not combined....they were separate body numbers as suspected. We pretty much figured that the body numbers had to be exclusive to their own job numbers....otherwise there was no way of telling how many of each body style were made.

It now appears that the convertible landau was made until sometime in mid-1929 (June or July as you indicated), which would back up the high body numbers that we have seen on the cowl tags of existing cars, and which would also support the reason why vast numbers of this model still survive today. From the information that has now come forth from your research, I think that we can probably lay the rumor of the "300" convertible landaus to rest since that number is obviously bogus...as many of us have suspected for decades. And, it is entirely possible that there could have been more than 8,000 of that body style manufactured by Chevrolet when compared to the manufacturing numbers of Pontiac's counterpart in 1929.

Ken, thanks for your diligent research into this matter. It is extremely appreciated by those of us on Chevy Chatter II.

thanks guys for this post great research ,Just a question about the body serial number my 28 Convertable cabriolet has on the fire wall plaque the job number and then a body number but no plant prefix however the fisher boby numbers burnt into the woodwork under the seat the prefix"C "is there .I supose for the Cleveland plant I have noted this on most of the Convertable cabriolets is this the same with the Imperial landaus of 29, the only other reference to an assembly plant is on the brass chassis ID plate on the side of the seat where this sometimes has the plant prefix?

As an update, Mike McCagh's (a member here on CC II) convertible landau has a body number of 8101. So, from that, and Ken's research, we can now assume that at least 8,101 convertible landau's were made in 1929.

Is there info on Mike’s Body # 8101 Convertible Landau? It would be very helpful to chart out the engine serial #; the block cast date, and Body #. From David Dawn 1929 Research Project of about 60 cars/trucks, only one Convertible Landau Sedan, one Imperial Sedan, 2 Sport Cabriolet and adding #1098 & 8108 this is what we could chart:
ENGINE# CAST DATE CAR NO. JOB No. BODY NO.
180529 K 2 8 12AC 11851 8890 423 Sp Cab
? ? ? 8860 1098
? ? ? 8860 1278
? ? ? 8860 8101
? E 17 9 ? 8890 20578
1129478 H 16 9 21AC 88888 8910 J 1781 Imperial Sd

Please add to this chart known data and we will all see what actually happen?
kenK

Mike is usually on this site daily so if he picks up on this post he can supply the additional information. I do have his car serial number. It is 1AC 57848.

too cold here in Western Md to go to barn for the engine serial #, casting # and casting date. thought i had it on paper here in shop, but can't find. when weather breaks, will supply the #'s,mike

My car is #1098:
The block is an 835501, number 373535, casting date C29.The quality control identification is "Bowtie" 11.

I sure apprciate all the work going into this research.

Note a Landau Imp. with a a MARCH block.

ChevyNut, please expand on your post. Nothwithstanding ad information as late as the end of Model year 1929, we still need to tighten up the statement about ending body style production at the beginning of the calender year. Does your post mean ended body production in Jan or Feb 29 is consistent with a March engine ... or ???? Shipping from body builder to assembly plant then putting on the body into the production line .... seems like that would take several weeks in 29.
Does the engine stamped number, 373535, add anything?

This goes back to the false info floating around about this style and has been an on-going discussion here for the last few years.
One publication stated there were only 300 made. Other publications have copied and used the same figure. At one point it was said they were only assembled in January....and so on.
The 1929 engine numbers ranged from 1 thru 1265800 Your engine production sequence number of 373565 indiactes the engine was made in March with the March engines running from349,222 and up.

As Ken noted in his research above, the convertible landau was made until at least June or July of 1929. The manufacturing of the convertible landau did not end at the beginning of the calendar year. That is another misconception like the "only 300 made" rumor.

The serial number on your engine block and the casting date indicates that your convertible landau was assembled in March of 1929 as Gene stated, not prior to that date, so that confirms that the convertible landaus were made past January. And, based on your body number of 1098, that would mean that at least 1,098 convertible landaus were made up to that point in time in whatever factory your car was manufactured.

The engine serial number, the block casting date and the body number on your car all help to dispute the false information that the convertible landau was only made until January, and that only 300 of that model were made. And, with Mike's car thrown into the picture, we now know that at least 8,101 convertible landaus were made in 1929...if not more.

Another item that should be considered: If Mike's convertible landau was made in a different factory than your car then we can add your body number of 1098 to his body number of 8101, and that will give us 9,199 convertible landaus made that we know of at this point. And, if any of the other numerous existing convertible landaus were made in different factories, their body numbers can be added to the total as well. That is one way to determine about how many thousands of this model were actually made.

Hey guys,
I just had this wild thought. How about generating a list of the most common myths dealing with old Chevrolets. The 300 Convertible Landau Sedans can be the first. I am sure there are many others. Like in 1931 each body style was built in separate plant!

A second idea is to continue to add information to the database started by Dave Dawn. He collected the numbers on many early 6 cylinder Chevys many years ago. I am sure that there are many more out there that can be added particularly from people outside the VCCA.

Yep, I agree.....the biggest myth and first on the list would definitely have to be the "only 300 made" fiasco. Trouble is this myth has been circulating for so long it is going to take years to set history straight.

Also, the same myth about only one body style being made in each factory has been spread around for 1932 as well.

Skipper,
Our beginning data base shows that open cars with windup windows like the 1929 Sport Cabriolet [Body # 423 and # 28860] and the three Convertible Landau Sedans had no Fisher Body plant codes stamped in front of the Body #. This is because they were built in the Colt Ave plant in Cleveland. Notice the Imperial Sedan as a closed body was built in J for Janesville, WI. It will be interesting to see when Mike's # 8101 was built? If it was built after #28860 in May or June, this would prove that the Sport Cabriolet and the Convertible Landau Sedan Body numbers used their own number sequence and were not combined. We are all waiting for Mike to give us his numbers.
kenK

Yep, it will be interesting to see what numbers Mike comes up with. As a side note, according to Mike's car serial number, his convertible landau was assembled in the Flint factory and I have seen a listing of another convertible landau serial number indicating that it was assembled in the Buffalo factory.

What #s do you want from the Imperial Landau sedan that we have here?

Not exactly sure what you are asking, but we would like to have job number, body number, engine serial number, engine casting number, engine casting date, and the car serial number.

I'll see if I can find all those.

OK, try these on for size.

Job # 8860
Body # 441
Engine serial # 82956
Engine casting # 835501
Engine casting date A 3 9
Head casting date D 24 0
Car serial # 1AC1330

What does that tell ya.
Hope it helps. Andy.

Thanks for the numbers Andy!

Okay, the numbers break down as follows:

Job # 8860 = Convertible Landau
Body # 441 = 441st Convertible Landau (for now anyway)
Engine serial # 82956 = Serial number issued in January of 1929
Engine casting # 835501 = 1929 engine block
Engine casting date A 3 9 = Engine cast on January 3rd, 1929
Head casting date D 24 0 = 1930 cylinder head cast on May 24, 1930
Car serial # 1AC1330 = Flint factory, 1929 Series AC, and the car was the 330th vehicle assembled in the Flint factory in 1929. Note that the car serial numbers started at 1,001.

Thanks. Just thought I'd put in my little dab of Info to the discussion.

That information is really interesting. The 441st Convertible Landau body was the 330th 1929 model assembled in Flint. That and the fact that there is no body plant code letter, supports the supposition that all Convertible Landau bodies were produced in one plant and then shipped to the assembly plants.

The Car No. 1AC1330 seems to low because this would be a Decenber build car with 1304 cars built in December. The last Flint car in December would be 1304 plus 1001 = 1AC2305.
Please double check your car number for a fith diget.
kenK

Its difficult for me to get the doors open all the way. I took the car # off the title. Where is the actual # located?

The car serial number is located on a plate that is attached to the passenger side wood main sill, facing the passenger door and a few inches in front of the front seat frame. The plate was attached at the factory with little nails and most often the car serial number plate is missing.

Ken: Similar to the convertible landau, over the years I have found numerous 1930 and 1932 sedans, coaches and coupes that don't have a factory code letter in front of the body number. In your research what would the missing factory code letter on these closed Fisher Bodies indicate?

Pictures! Heres the tag and the floorboard that is stamped with the body # that matches the cowl tag.


What do you think?

I can't read the car serial number very well on my computer but the number appears to match the car serial number that you posted yesterday. Is that correct...does it match?

Sorry, yes it matches the number that I posted.

Looks like there is a "C" stamped into the wood before the actual body number which would indicate the Cleveland body plant. The body number photo is great documentation. Let the investigation continue.

On my screen its looks like there is a "L" after the "C"

After the C is the # 441 in a different stamp font. Its hard to see in the picture, but definate in person.Numbers not lined up, looks like stamped by hand one number at a time.

Skip
I have never ran across a closed body Body No. number that did not have a letter prefix that indicated the Fisher Body plant on the Fisher Body nameplate on the cowl. I have seen a few cases where a large body plant like "S" St Louis supplying coupe bodies to say the Oakland plant. In cases of miss stamped body numbers or not stamped body cowl plates, I would think the Job No. and the Body number stamped in the wood by Fisher would be the more correct. Like Jimmy Hatton wrote concerning his 1928 convertible a few days ago, all the blank letter prefix body No. he has seen in Australia always have the stamped "C" in the wood for the Cleveland Body Plant.
Concern the C441 and 1AC1330 indicates this car was built the first week of production in December but must of had major engine problems and a new engine installed a few months later.
kenK

Ken,
Maybe the post I made a few days ago, quoted below, can add some more credibility for this car.



It is my understanding that many of the early production '29 engines had enough problems that they were replaced or had to be repaired by dealer mechanics. That is still a problem in todays world though not as often as in the past.

Ken: I have been checking job numbers and body numbers for years on the 1932's that I have run across and some of vehicles did not have a factory letter code in front of the body number on the cowl tag. I thought that it was odd when I discovered the first one, but since then I have seen a handful of 1930 through 1931 sedans, coupes and coaches that were lacking the factory letter code. The mystery as to why still continues.

Also, since a "C" was stamped on the wood cross member next to the body number why didn't Chevrolet also have the same "C" as part of the body number on the Fisher Cowl Tag? What was their thinking on this?

Guys,
There are certain lots of mysteries concerning Chevrolet serial numbers and casting numbers and why they did it that way? This is what makes it interesting and why I believe it is important to document all these numbers and letters in some logical format. This is what I have tried to do with the pre 25 Chevrolets, recording all the numbers I can get when I am checking out an early Chev 4. This helps in establishing trends and adverages. I even made car registration list for cars I was researching with an interest to purchase. So I had the car numbers and photos of all known 1912-3 Little Fours Ruabouts, 1918-9 Model D "EIGHTS," and Scripps-Booth Model C, D, and G Roadsters several years before I purchased each of these three cars. I should we should also try and get the title or license number which I find on the pre 25 cars to be incorrect about 20% of the time. I am very surprised no one has not collected the numbers on the 1929 Convertible Landau Sedans to date?
kenK

The early 1929's had no piston pin (wrist pin) bushing in the piston. The pin ran directly in the pistons cast iron surface. This caused the pins to wear rapidy and the pins to get noisy very fast. From what I understand they replaced the pistons with the late bushing style when the owners complained. Perhaps on the first cars they replaced the engines.

I was looking through a few back issues of the G&D from the '60s and refresh my memory a bit when I read that the then editor of the G&D - Duane Steele had purchase a 1929 Convertible Landau Sedan. Duane never mention what his Body number was but I found in the VCCA 1967 Roster [which was the last roster to list serials numbers] that Duane gave his car number as 5AC 21443. Duane also started a 1929 Convertible Landau Roster and asked for both VCCA and non members to join him in his quest! I wonder what ever happened to this Roster?
kenK

I found a video on You Tube that mybe can have some interest in this discussion .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjF_KXVj5c0&feature=related

Here can you see the Fisher Body tag , General motors of Canada,Job and Body no.

Is this where the 300 began???

I was sorting out some of my magazines and ran across this in the No,-Dec 1972 issue of "The Action Era Vehicle", the publication of the Comtemporary Historical Vehicle Assn.

Article "One Mans Chevy Treasure....Whats it All About" By Gene Davis. He was a VCCA member at that time but I believe he has passed on.
Mr. Davis says, "It has been estimated there were only about 300 of these models produced, but if any one knows for sure, I'd like to have them contact me."

Now it is his car that is pictured in "60 Years of Chevrolet" .
Under the picture of Mr. Davis and his 1929 Imperial Landau in "60 Years" is the caption "He has good reason to be proud of his car because the car is most rare, most unusual and most sought after Chevrolet. Approximately 300 were built" ......"Surprisingly, though only 300 were built, there are at least 16 still know to be in existence."

I believe this is where the 300 number began as so many articles have used information that was published in "60 Years" and the errors in that book have found their way into other publications.

Gene,
The "60 years of Chevrolet" is full of errors. Not only did a bunch of other authors use the erroneous "facts" but some even created other "statistics" based on what an owner (many trying to increase the value of their vehicle prior to sale) told them what they "believed". Once published a "fact" becomes extremely difficult to change. The longer the erroneous facts are unchallenged the more authors and authorities can cite "the preponderance of evidence" supporting their claims.

And the right people always belive the wrong thing....just like the interet today, and try to change their minds.

If 60 Years Of Chevy was quoting Mr. Davis, who told Mr. Davis?

I think it was the "sell an old car fairy" in Mr. Davis' sleep.

Along the lines of the serial numbers I asked the current owner of the only Imp Land Sedan in our region if I could submit his serial number. He does not have a computer and said that would be okay. The story goes that this car was restored by Dick Davies in 1959 using many NOS parts. The restoration is starting to show its age but runs and drives great. The body number is O 1879 with a vin of AC27347. This would indicate that many plants produced these bodies. I did not look up the engine serial number. Any comments?

Thanks for getting the body and serial numbers for us. That is some great information! I am familiar with the Dick Davies car and I have seen it several times.

The "O" in front of the body number would indicate the Oakland factory. Many of the other convertible landaus don't have a factory designation code letter in front of the body number, so that is what makes this body number so interesting. Also, since the body number on this car does have the factory designation code, that would help to indicate that the convertible landau body was made in other factories as you suggested.

The "1879" would indicate that this was the 1,879th convertible landau made in the Oakland factory.

The serial number of AC 27347 is not complete since the serial number should have a "6" (designating Oakland) in front of the "AC". Anyway, the "27347" means that the car was the 26,347th vehicle made in the Oakland factory in 1929 since the serial numbers started at 1,001.

Did you, by chance, happen to check out the job number to confirm that it was 8860?

Skip, Yes I looked to make sure it said 8860 on the fire wall tag. It was dark and I was using a flashlight so I did not see a 6 in front of the AC on the sill plate. Seems to me the AC was in large preformed letters and the actual number was stamped. My little 8880 coupe is stored over there so I may be up there again as the weather improves later this week. I was working on my water pump so we could take it on a tour Sunday but it was raining that morning so we had to take more modern iron.

Good going! Your information is extremely helpful, thanks for taking the time to check it out.

By the way, is that convertible landau Mike's car?

I would encourage you to look under the front seat to see what the body # prefix is stamped in the wood? C or O?
Also would like engine # and date code?
Notice the Convertible Lsndau in the San Fernando Region VCCA website under members car.
kenK

Hello, We ended up going to the beach that weekend since we had such wonderful weather. During the next work week I got sick so have not had the opportunity to go up to Mikes until today. The actual serial number on the wood cross-member was the same 1879 but the symbol in front of it was a deep V inside of a vertical rectangle, almost like an M with a bar across the bottom. Does this mean anything to you? The engine serial is 575811. I forgot to get the engine date code as we were supposed to meet some other friends to go to a plant nursery. I sure would like to know how many of these things are out there and were they made at all plants. Was there a Fisher Body plant near each one of the GM plants? That would mean Chev, Pontiac, Buick, Olds, Oakland, LaSalle, Cadillac etc. plants or did they have like six or seven and ship the bodies. If that is the case there would have to have been at least maybe 100,000 carpenters and at least double that many more helpers. Did they have a central woodworking plant in say Michigan where wood was plentiful, ship the machined wood to subassembly body plants and assemble them onto the bodies at the final assembly plant? The numbers and logistics are just mind blowing when you think that in 1929 Chevrolet manufactured 1,300,000 vehicles alone.

Well - this brings another surprise - a [M] stamp Fisher Body that came out of the Oakland, California Code 6 prefix Plant.
The [M] stamp in wood as the BODY No. prefix under the seat on the rear side of the seat heal board as been an almost 50 year mystery to me that I don't recall has ever been mention before.
The day I purchase my 1927 Capital AA Coupe on Thanksgiving weekend in 1962, and cleaning it up to check it out, did I first observe that the [M] prefix was stamp in the wood while the letter '0' was stamp (or imprinted) on the body plate on the firewall. So what Fsher Body Plant use this [M] code? I just do not know!

What I do know is the Fisher Body Oakland Plant was the smallest Assembly Plant in 1927 at 120,459 sq ft with Janesville Assembly Plant at 225,190 sq ft. Both these two plants were owned by the Fisher Body St. Louis Company which was a 776,900 sq ft that was a complete Body Plant The Flint Assembly Plant was 146,000 sq ft, the Tarrytown plant was 153,700 sq ft, and the Norwood was 190,000 sq ft. The last 3 plants were supplied by the Fisher manufacturing plants in Detroit with 5,114,954 sq ft and Cleveland at 1,451,248 sq ft.
It is possibe that the much larger St Louis supplied at time to time, "Body in White" to Oakland where the Oakland plant then finished the paint and interior. Then the [M] might stand for Misouri built Body in White?
kenK

Here is another surprise, and one that will help to support that the 1929 convertible landau was made in other factories.

I just received the following information from Dave Dawn who apparently owns Duane Steele's old 1929 convertible landau:

Serial number is 5AC21443, the Job Number is 8860 and the Body Number is K 481.

You will notice with the "K" Prefix in front of the body number that this vehicle was made in Kansas City, and it was the 481st convertible landau made in that factory.

Did you happen to ask David Dawn, as an owner of a Job No. 8860, and long time researcher of this Fisher body style, if he had a list or Roster of Job No. 8860?
As before. we should be interested in the prefix body plant code stamped in the heal board under the seat. I would like to see a photo image of this Job # stamped in the wood.
It is interesting to note that the St Louis plant was larger than the Oakland, Atlanta, and Kansas City plants combined - so we now need to always check under the seat for this stamped number.
kenK

Yes...I have already contacted Dave and asked him for that information. I will report back here when I receive it.

Just heard back from Dave Dawn and the body number is the same on the wood cross member in front of the seat, K 481. Also, the date stamped on door latches and window regulators is 5-29.

engine serial # on our conv landaue is 702655. mike mccagh

Based on your engine serial number it appears that your convertible landau was manufactured sometime around late May of 1929, which is a further indicator that this model was made to at least June of 1929.

While searching for info on '31 Chev's, I came across the Document "Chevrolet-US and Canadian Production Figures, 1912-1931" by Kaufman and Hayward et al, dated 2002.
It is a fascinating read for those interested in a brief history of Chevrolet during this period, their many plants, Fisher Body plants as well as considerable stats on production numbers, casting and serial numbers etc. One interesting thing for me was that Fisher Bodies were made for Canadian Cars in a Toronto mill/plant, and later Oshawa but only through 1927 model year, after that they were made in USA, meaning if this is correct, that '28 on bodies should be fully interchangeable between US and Canadian Cars.
But that is not why I am in this thread.
While going through it (and I do not know if it has accepted credibility or not among the veterans), I thought about this "imperial landau/convertible landau thread" herein referred to as Imp-L. The document shows the Imp-L starting in 1927 (no production figure given) and carrying through to some point in the 1929 production run (Shows 202 Imp-L cars were built in 5 week period Nov24-Dec31 1928). While there are no production figures for 1927/1928, the data for 1929 models indicates serial # 12AC-10774 was a Convertible Landau "one of 296 built".
Later in total Chevrolet production figures for 1929, Imp-L's are totaled at that elusive 300 number. Phaetons are at about 8,000
Earlier threads have tried several methodologies to arrive at an approximation of how many Imp-L's may have been built, largely based on anecdotal observations.
From my perspective the model was clearly intended to be marketed to a somewhat exclusive crowd, the mayors, politicos rich folk etc. However, those folk had access to Caddies, Lincolns, Big Chryslers, Buick's, Packards, etc, etc, so they problably did not show up to buy these.
During the 2-year period of '30/'31, only about 2600 Phaeton's were sold and about 9500 standard roadsters.
The point I am suggesting is that if as many as several thousand Imp-L's were made (some suggest 8,000), then it would be a very healthy model for production compared to volume of sales of some other models and not likely shut down. Unless of course there was no market for them. Since only 202 were built between Nov 24 and Dec 31 1928, and the model supposedly shut down by spring 1929, the number 300 may be a very defensible number.
As for my Car the Coach, I was surprised to see it was the most popuular in sales for both 1930 and 1931!

The 300 number has been pretty much proven as being false. And, if you go back and re-read the entire thread you will find that Ken Kaufman did further research and discovered that the convertible landau was made until June of 1929, which changed his earlier theory about the November-December 1928 production posted on his 2002 web-site indicating that only 202 were manufactured.

In an earlier posting Ken states the following:

I just presumed on my part that the 1929 Convertible Landau Sedan was discontinued in the January-February 1929 time period after building 202 units in December in Flint. This afternoon I tried to find out more data on when the Convertible Landau Sedan, Fisher Body Job No. 8860, was actually replaced in production with the 1929 Imperial Sedan, Fisher Body No. 8910, in mid July 1929. The last listing I found of the Convertible Landau Sedan was in the June 8th issue of The Literary Digest that reported over 600,000 6 cylinders sold in less then 5 months. This is also the last advert for the Sport Cabriolet which was illustrated with the top down at the beach in “Trianon Blue” color. The Literary Digest for July 6, 1929 announced the 900,000 6 cyl was sold, with the Imperial Sedan and Sport Coupe listed. Then in several newspaper adverts it was announced that the 1,000,000 6 cyl was built on Aug 5 in Flint and it was an Imperial Sedan which had just gone into production a few week before. Then I found an newspaper advert for Saturday August 3rd that announced the 950,000 6 cyl sold and two distinguished new models – the Imperial Sedan and the Sport Coupe [replaced the Sport Cabriolet which was not offered until the 1931 models.] So from the above it looks like the Convertible Landau Sedan was build into June 1929. On August 3rd it stated that samples would be sent to the 5000 Chevrolet dealers. Now the 8,000 number seems possible.
kenK

And now, based on body numbers and factory designation code letters found on several convertible landaus, that information also tends to support the 8,000 plus figure as well.

This is a really intriguing puzzle! His notes I read as referring to sales of the Imp-L model into June '29, not necessarily production ending then. Is it possible units were sitting in inventory (300 or 5,000) because they were not selling quickly?
Whatever prompted GM to discontinue the line (likely slow sales?), they would have decided to do so, and normally stopped production months prior to the final sales which would come from built-up inventory. Also, if the Imperial Sedan was the replacement model, a time lag in the production line would be needed to changeover between models (although admittedly the differences are not large).
I do not think that sales of 8,000 units in 6/8 months would lead GM to stopping the model mid-year. If the Nov-Dec production level of 40 such cars a week is extrapolated to June '29, the 30 week period would total 1200 Imp-L's.
The consensus seems to be that the model was likely not selling well enough, GM decided to end production early/mid-year, and the inventory (200 or thousand's) was sent out to dealers to sell, more likely as a clear-out(my interpretation) than as 'samples' since they did not plan to make anymore. I suspect the real number will remain a mystery for a while yet!
A fascinating topic, I've never seen one of these rare cars, and hope those who do have them are enjoying the cars and the mystery they have created.

Yep, this is an interesting puzzle and it is one that is great to talk about.

The convertible landau is not rare and many of us that have been in the hobby for years have seen plenty of them, and even today, there are lots of these models still around.

Initially, it was thought that the convertible landau was only produced in one factory for a month or two which would maybe support the 300 theory. However, now indications are that this model was built in most factories for a period of almost 8 months. And, with 5,000 dealers getting samples of this model you can't stretch "300" examples that far. Also, we now know that evidence indicates that the convertible landau was made in more than one factory. So, as an example, at 40 cars per week with an 8 month production in 9 factories, that would be about 11,520 models produced.

There is a convertible landau here on CC II that has a body number that exceeds 8,000 and it was built in the Kansas City factory, so that would further indicate that at least 8,000 convertible landaus were built in the Kansas City factory alone.

The only real mystery here is how the bogus 300 figure got started in the first place.

I suppose a second mystery is if sales volume was as high as 8,000+, why did they discontinue the model? Oh well, I must get back to my old Coach (not couch!!)

GM has done other weird things over the years...including discontinuing various models of vehicles and years later bringing them back again.

re. JunkYardDog's comment on the bogus 300 number, that was the number listed for Flint production, no other assembly plants were shown to have built the Imperial Landau for 1929. This information was included in a copy of 1929 - 1932 Chevrolet first car and truck serial numbers for each month for each assembly location in the US, and first engine numbers for each month from Flint. This information is assumed to be incomplete for this reason, and because it appears to be incomplete for 1932. This was sent to me by Lew Clark about 12 years ago when I was asking members for serial numbers. Remember the 1929-32 Chevrolet Serial Number Survey mailed to hundreds of VCCA members? Response from members was good, response from club officials was not so good. At the time, Lew asked me to keep the info confidential, to use it only to check the numbers sent to me, and I have continued to do so.

Imagine the volume of information we would have today if that serial/engine no. survey had been continued. But it was not continued because there was never a reply to my request to include it in the Tech Advisor program.

That makes sense as to where the bogus "300" figure came from...and that information was obviously before it was discovered that the convertible landau was made in other factories and that the vehicle was made into June of 1929 as well.

By the way, the motor serial numbers by the month for 1929-32 have been on the Internet for several years, and the information shown is extremely interesting.

I have a '29 sales folder from Belgium, the language is Flemish. The Imperial Landau is called "De Convertible Landau Sedan" and the colors are not Crockett Brown and Mistino Gray. These '29s were fitted with shock absorbers, with what looks like canvas straps instead of steel links.

A US built 1929 Imperial Landau didn't get a second color combination. DuPont color info shows new color combinations starting July 1, 1929.

I've read all the posts with interest because we have had our Conv. Landau nearly twenty years and many miles. Our car is Canadian though,
Body 8860 General Motors Canada, Oshawa
job 1516
engine cast d 1 9 April Fools Day
could not make out the serial number and the car serial number is a reproduction.
I know of three similar cars in Ontario and Canuck cars are blue with gray upholstery, but I don't want to hijack this thread. Gary

Gary... You're not hijacking the thread, it's about your car!! You should post a picture, as I'm sure most have not seen a blue one, or even knew they were built that way.

Gary, I would like to know more about blue Canadian Imperial Landaus with gray interior because I will paint mine some colors other than Crocket Brown and Mistino Gray.

I just saw this on utube and thought I'd post it onto one of my favourite threads!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL9V8mZqb90&feature=related

Thanks for the post Brewster, That 29 is a great find for restoration. A lot of work ahead of him though. They also had some other Chevy video's post their that were pretty cool.

Collectible Automobile Feb. 2011... 1929-1930 Chevrolet Feature... And finally a publisher has referenced the VCCA's theories (Ken Kauffman is quoted) on the true production numbers. All of their production charts show the 300, but there is now an * astrick * with the theories from this thread listed underneath. Oh... and some great pictures of '29-'30 Chevs. Two different '29 Landau convertibles. Some of our members cars are featured.

Cool! It's about time that at least one of the car publications makes an attempt to set the record straight regarding the false "300" production figure of the 1929 convertible landau.

Can you post here some of the theories that were listed in the article?

No new theories... just a rehash of this thread. It says 202 documented cars were built in Flint in the final weeks of 1928, and likely the thousands of dealers ordered many more in the next six months of production. It doesn't touch on the fact that this thread has uncovered cars built in other factories, or the fact that the bodies were built in Clevland. Another question I'd like to add to the mix... was the Colt Ave. factory that Ken mentions building bodies for only Chevrolet, or other GM's as well. Would this Pontiac body be built on the same line, and numerically sequenced within the Chevrolet body numbers? It must be a rare car as well...and I would think that fewer of these are around than the Chevrolet...

The Pontiac bodies would also be built in the same plant and have a separate body number. The Pontiac body ID number would also be different from the Chevrolet.

To add more wine to the water, one of the related videos shows another 29 I L Convertible (restoration) project, same color scheme (blue over black) which has the original cowl tag indicating General Motors of Canada Ltd, Oshawa, and showing Job # 8860, and body #980? What plant sent this body to Canada?
The ? remains why GM discontinued this line of vehicles. Were they poor sellers (supports the 300 number)? Did they have problems with the folding back mechanism leading to customer complaints? Did the depression doom the style?
As previously noted, although GM made lots of ill thought decisions over the years along with their good decisions, stopping production of a line of cars selling 10,000 or so a year seems odd.
In Europe during this period, a style of car like this was usually bought by wealthy guys who usually had a chauffeur driving while he and the wife sat in back enjoying the ride. They would likely have been seen by the average Joe as presumptuous.
Today we see them as unique and likely rare. So I guess we will never know the real story or #'s!

At this point, after seeing all of the different cowl and body numbers, I don't think that there is any evidence that supports the 300 number, other than hundreds of books that say 300! As for the car being cancelled, It was just a poor marketing idea, and the production numbers show that. If you build your company around selling the countries cheapest cars for the masses, it is hard to sell to that upscale consummer that wants something special. Like you said, it would take a chauffeur to drive to let the owner feel the satisfaction of the top down experience in this car. If someone wanted a convertible, the cabriolet or much cheaper roadsters and phaeton were available. People with chauffeurs were not driving Chevrolets! So how does that account for 8-9 thousand sales? First, there is always a part of the market that wants to own the newest and nicest thing going, and this was certainly it! This type of consumer preorders stuff, or is waiting at the dealership for roll-out day! Second, if it is true that GM sent one to every dealership, that means the cars had to be built. This beautiful car likely could sell itself in the window of a dealership, but given few colour choices and that weird convertible top, would you really order one? It seems more of an impulse buy! I think the 8000 sales likely came early in the year, and the cancellation came from a slow down in sales and feedback from the market. Just changing the roof to a fixed roof resulted in 42,000 sales for half a year of the Imperial sedan... a much more functional car, and apparently what the consumer was looking for!

My car as had sevral owners, and Ido not know how many times it has been counted my cowl tag is Detroit 8860 body1024 same as in front of seat in the wood. 6AC16159 on the tag, engine I think reads stampedis342700 cast:836409 L 11 0 23 Thanks Now you can shoot me out of the water. Mine is cream and bergany

Not really. After decades they stopped the production of the Camaro in 2003 and that was a popular car. Same with the Impala, Oldsmobile (Olds was around for 100 years), Pontiac and etc.



Here is yet another 1929 convertible landau that supports the documentation that more than 300 vehicles were made. This one was the 1,024 convertible landau made in the Oakland factory. The serial number on this vehicle also supports again that the convertible landau was made in other factories. Based on body and serial numbers from other numerous surviving convertible landaus, the 300 production figure is obviously bogus as many of us suspected for years.

Rip, interesting engine # L 11 0 23 in your '29 Landau, which if I am correct dates to December 11th 1930 (not sure what the 23 refers to). While not an original '29 engine, is it from a very late '30 or early '31 car or a early factory replacement? The bell housing/tranny changed 1930 versus 1931 so you might be able to tell from that if drive-train is matching numbers.

The block casting number of 836409 indicates that he has a 1931 engine.

With out going out and looking at this yet, what should I look for as far as good nos. And would the 31 bolt right on to the 29 clutch and housing? Iknew you would shoot me down but I can dog b
paddle in water for a while

Your 1931 engine serial number should be seven digits and not six.

How many no. on a30 or 29?

1929 engine serial numbers started at number one. All 1930 engines have seven digit serial numbers as does 1931. Your engine is definitely a 1931 because of the block casting number and the casting date.

Ithink
i might get sick, but dont tell my wife, I will check this weekend thanks, Ithink Roger

You're welcome.....I think.

Anyway, check the casting number on your cylinder head also and post it here. We will tell you what year the cylinder head is as well. Also, I have some 1929 engine blocks if you need one.

I doubt if slow sales was the reason the Imperial Landau was discontinued. Almost 55,000 were sold in 1928. I think a more likely reason was customer complaints of a leaky roof. The seal and water drain system between the convertible top and the fixed roof is a very primitive design that probably led to a lot of ugly water stains in the interior. The stock market crash was at the end of 1929, so the price was not likely to have caused a sales decline. Chevrolet sales were still good through 1930 and most of 1931, some folks in hard times were buying Chevrolets instead of Buicks and Cadillacs.

Rip, don't worry we'll never tell her, and I hope you don't let her peek in on Chat II!! To help you figure out what you have as a complete drive-train, the '29 and '30 cars had a pressed steel bell housing, to which the tranny was bolted with bolts hidden inside the bell housing, and the clutch was adjusted by a hooked bolt mechanism through the yoke(this is what I have for the '30 engine in my '31 Coach). By '31 I understand they went to a cast steel bell housing, and the tranny was bolted on from the tranny side with 4 bolts exposed for you to see and allow tranny removal. The clutch was by then adjusted by way of a newer adjusting plate mounted on the pedal shaft. Various threads here cover the relative interchangeability of these various components, and what can be done routinely, and what is problematic. You could have a '31 engine with a '29 or '30 bell housing and tranny or with a complete '31 drivetrain. Would love to have your car!!!

By "Imperial Landau" I meant just the convertible model, which was new for '29. You are also right about the leaky roof thing, which would also have contributed to the thoughts of cancellation. I agree that the stock market crash had nothing to do with it, the car had run it's course as a novelty thing and the only way to improve sales was put a fixed roof on it. It reminds me of the Thunderbird... a sucsessful debut, but changed to a 4 seater after just three years of a downward trend in sales. Once you've captured that market that wants the 'trendy' car, there is no lift in sales afterward. Just as Ford added back seats to make the T-bird functional, Chevrolet added a fixed top to make this one functional. The results show, the car was a success after the change... 42000 sales in 6 months is a big improvement!

Well I looked again and there is no other no. stamped just those six no. Up higher on the side of the block above the cast no. there is another cast no. it reads conv. -3. Ithought Imight have a diferant head (on the engine) my temp sender is in the back. The bell housing and cluch and tranny are 29. Roger

If my wife was reading this she would be sending you a title and a red ribbon.

If the temperature sending unit is in the back of the cylinder head then your cylinder head is a 1930 or up. You would have to check the casting date and the casting number to find out which cylinder head you have.

Too bad that you have the wrong engine in your convertible landau because that is a desirable car. However, you can always purchase another 1929 engine or cylinder block to make the car correct.

The 1930 head and block that I have is all but perfect new poured bearing and on and on. I wonder if a person could ever trade with someone? Would it bring the value of the car up enough to make the trade worth while? It is a 8 or9 driver, but not a musseum piece now.

The only reason to change the engine would be if your are dedicated to having a 100% original car. The '30 looks like the '29 and if you have '29 manifolds the vast majority of people will never know it is not a '29 engine.

You right but I will always know I will keep looking and go from there , its a great car. Thanks alot and have a good one Roger

As stated above, due to the casting number and the casting date, the engine block that is in your car is a 1931, not a 1930!

Since you have a 1929 convertible landau, which is a very desirable car, on the market your vehicle would be worth more to a true collector if your car had the correct engine.

You had said that you might have a block or 2, but would you have a complete block with haed

I have several 1929 long blocks but I believe that I have sold all of my 1929 cylinder heads. Those all went to Canada.