Are the tie rod ends (ball and socket) adjustable? Mine are real loose. Should i be removing the cotter pin and trying to screw in the end or should I just replace?

The repair manual is lacking in this area. they describe toe and discuss tightening the steering connecting rod that looks similar, but that is it.

You should inspect the ends to make sure the springs are in good condition. Also check the balls for roundness. If you find problems replacement ball ends are available as are internal parts.

Thanks Chipper. There is enough play in them to tell me the internals are worn. Since the housing itself is good, I think will change all the innards.

One more question, do the balls press out or unscrew?

Normally they are a press out and look to see that someone has not welded them in.

Yuck! While I have a grinder, a welder and a 12 ton press, this is more that I expected. Oh well, if it must be done...

I think the first step will be to remove and inspect. Now that I know there is a spring in there, perhaps some of the play I felt and saw was just a weak spring.

Mine just all fell out. Pull the cotterpin,unscrew the plug and it falls out. Mind you you may have worn cups on top of worn cups and the balls may be way out of round but it is a simple job unless of course someone has done something stupid.
The important thing is that when you get it all back together nicely greased that you screw it all up tight and then back off to put the cotter pin through.I backed off a full turn and I had the lightest steering ever. I also chewed out a set of front tyres in about 50 miles.

The one thing I found with this car is that the previous owners took good care of the car, but had no real skill to screw things up. In other words, they mostly did nothing. I can see minor fixes on the car, but nothing that required tools. I guess that is a good thing, because every re-repair I have done has been easy to clean up. As soon as my fever is gone (sick today), i will get under and pop off a tie rid and look. Since Gary Wallace Is away for the week, there is plenty of time to inspect closely and then order new parts.

the proceedure for installing tie rod end is screw plug tight, back slot to cotter pin hole and insert pin.

if the ball has excessive wear and has become egg shaped this adjustment can lead to excessive looseness and/or binding when the wheels are turned. the spring is suppose the maintain tension but it doesn't allow for much variation in ball diameter. if the ball is signifcantly worn and the tie rod is adjusted with the wheels in the straight ahead position, you'll be tightening across the narrow part of the "egg". turning the wheels will start a cam type action inside the tie rod end and bind. this is a worst case scenario.

the ball is press fit into the arm and the end peened. grind off the peened area, apply heat the the arm and use a hammer or press to remove the ball. this is provided someone hasn't done some welding. this ball will remain hot for a while, even on a concrete floor......I know this for a fact!!

freeze the new ball, heat the arm and the ball installs easily. there should be enough stud to peen for safety.

Excellent instructions.

Excellent indeed, thanks!!! You guys always come through with the most detailed info of any forum I have been on.

I just found this on the Vintage Auto pats web site.

1928-40, except 39-40, w/ knee action (Stud type is an improved version replacing the original shell type ends. They require removal of the original ball stud in the steering arms.) ES29 stud; replacement stud type. $79.50 pair

http://www.vapinc/chevy/Steering%20Parts/main.html

Is this correct, can I indeed replace the shell type with stud type? I can't find any other reference to this.

Car is 1928 AB National

You might be careful on this. I find many vendors that throw the 1928 into later groupings and it is not the same. Do your homework.

And that is why I asked. Even with my limited knowledge on the car, I can also see the trend of vendors just adding in whatever they like to sell a part. So unless someone here says they will fit, i will stick to what is there right now.

This is a big topic.I spent a week sorting out my tierods and drag links.At the same time I am working on my "38". Some parts cross over; most don't. I did say that the balls fell out. They did from the tierods but not from the steering arms.That was simply a matter of cutting off the balls, grinding the arms flat,drilling through undersize and then, with a little heat tapping out the remainding balljoint shaft metal.I was given a new set of balls but found that they had a thicker neck which meant that they fouled the housing and caused the cups to rotate and jam in the housing.I bought correct ones locally.Some of the later cups have a piece cut from the rim to allow for a thicker neck. I wish that I had photographed what I had done but I didn't.You obviously have the elements in place.Are the balls round, are the cups in reasonable order (not worn through)? The spacer, plug and spring should never wear.If the above is in order you should be able to grease it all up and screw the plug up tight and insert the cotter pin.If all else fails contact me.Ultimately I can remove the tie rod and photograph the bits.

Thanks Terry. I have not had a chance to disassemble to inspect because 1) I was sick this week, 2) the car was on the wrong side of the garage because my son needed to use the hoist and 3) it has been cold and wet.

Today is supposed to be nice, so I will move the car back to the hoist side of the garage and begin the inspection. Stay tuned for more adventures from Ottawa.

i got into the garage this afternoon and removed one side. the ball was perfectly round. and the reason why... it would appear that nothing has ever been adjusted! everything, including the steering linkage is looser than you can believe. i am going to re-grease and tighten up everything and do an alignment (toe) and see how she drives.

Now it could also be loose because the cups in the tie rod ends are a bit worn, but I can't tell because I don't have a reference to go by, but they do look rather fine.

if the balls aren't worn it's unlikely the seats are unless someone replaced excessively worn balls and didn't change the seats. I'd tighten the plugs as described and see how it works.

Perhaps it is not obvious, but in adjusting the tie rod end, the adjusting plug is tightened completely to a jam. Then it is backed off one or more turns to allow the springs to come into play. Then continuing the adjustment out use the next slot for the cotter key. The springs are strong enough to hold the alignment while driving, but will compress to account for a bump or other incident. You can feel the springs compensating for changes in the driving conditions.

When I got my 28 sedan it had been kept up very well a lot of mechanical work of excellent quality was visable. You could see exactly how far the previous owner had went. he apparently did the engine and driveline first. good used parts were used on the brakes. Rods, clevis and the brakes were done front and rear. The only problem was the cross shaft bushings were binding up. the seals on the axle shafts and wheelbearings had leaked gear grease onto the brake linings. new seals and new linings fixed that. The cross shafts were fixed when one of our European members that is what I consider a 28 guru sent me new brass bushings. The front brakes were loosened off and weren't working, probably on purpose, they only used the old Chevy for parades and a couple of local shows. All went well until I drove her over a blacktop road with a lot of humps potholes and curves on a tour. The car did a watussie left and right. I took the tierods apart they were in very good repair and well greased. Next I checked the toe in. WALLA! it was toed out an inch and 3/8". I adjusted the toe in to 5/8 of an inch and aired the tires up to 40 PSI and the old car drives like it is supposed to, the toe in made all the difference in the world. I was amazed at how smooth the front wheel bearings rotate, no vibes and when the wheel is jscked up and spun it rolls forever, it seems. The ballance was off just enough to allow the valve stem to barely bottom out. I now have a lot of respect for the Chevrolet engineers of 1928. They really did a first class job with the tools and machine tools of that period. There is no wonder that there are so many of us restoreing these old "Roaring Fours." I have owned a Model A and they may be more popular, but they were not superior to the Chevrolet in engineering. (IMHO)

toed OUT "1 3/8!!! I don't know how you kept it in your lane over 10 mph

Antiquemechanic,
Thanks for confirming what I saw. It is not very obvious. I now have to disassemble, clean and re-grease and will adjust accordingly and see how it holds together. Before i started, the ball would flop around between the two cups. I also found that the link connecting the steering box to the axle assembly was even looser. Things were not loose enough to fall apart, but loose enough to make driving a true test of fear and stamina.

Mr.Mack,
5/8" toe! The repair manual says 1/8" and I have seen other info that went to 1/4". To be honest,I think I will follow your lead and do 5/8". As well, i have aired the tires up to 35, but they still don't look right. $0 it is. I trust you guys more than the manual.

Again, thanks guys!!!

mr mack did you mean 1/8 instead of 5/8 / tow in

Hey, I barely did! It was a good thing that we were only going out about 20 miles for dinner. I noticed that the original front tires were scuffing up fast. After the toe in was adjusted the tires were good for several hundred miles.
I used a method that I had used when I was a boy. This method was inproved by Dandy Don abd I used his procedure, using two coffee cans a length of angle iron and some masking tape and a Sharpie marker and a tape measure on the smooth and level shop concrete floor. I also did it with the wheels jacked up a few inches, the jack was in the center of the axle and a jack stand on each side of the axle. I later checked it with the wheels on the ground and it then measured just an 1/8" less toe in, than when it was jacked up. I wanted it jacked up so I could check the wheel bearing free play, Jacked up also made it easy to adjust the tie rod.

I adjusted mine using a the center of the tread as a reference rather than the wheel as the book says. It seems to track best at "1/4. "1/4 at the tread would measure different at the wheel.

That is what I did and I checked the spinout of the tread and marked the tread half way across the tire with a strip of masking tape, so that it would be simular to the wheel sitting on the ground.. I also taped the angle iron and marked it with a sharpie even with the mark on the tire. I rolled the tire around 180 degrees and marked the tape even with the mark on the angle iron so that every mark was even. I lined the left hand mark even with the mark on the front and rear of the left tire . The difference in the front marks and the rear marks was what I called the toe in, you can also use the number of rounds you turn the tie rod and figure the threads per inch to get how much toe in you are putting in, if you have a reference to go by.
I also used a couple of 5 gallon pickle buckets to set the angle iron on since I raised the wheels off the ground. I don't think it is so much as to where on the wheel you do the measureing as long as the car is level and you measure both front and rear at the same height, I just like to use spindle high, it makes my math come out better for me. The pickle bucket was just about spindle high, I thought that would give more accurate information. I think toe in of each wheel would be 1/2 of the difference in the front to rear reading. so I guess I have about 1/4 inch of toe in for each wheel

I used a mark on the side of the tire and a plumb bob to measure the caster. There isn't an adjustment for caster, but I guess some Axle twisting or bending could be indicated if the castor is off also the camfer. I didn't try to change anything but the toe in. One of our LSR club members is a front end man from the old school and I decided if any more front end alignment is needed I would take it to him. To me that shows just one more reason to be a member of a VCCA Region. Help is always available from friends to friends.

this is the contraption that I made.



I didn't make it width adjustable, didn't figure it would ever be used on any other vehicle.

Great minds think alike. I am on my way to Home Depot after work to pick up some steel to make one too, but mine will be adjustable. i will post pics once complete. My thought was to use it to measure the rear, then adjust it down the prescribed amount and use it on the front.

by measuring the front first then the rear you can watch your instrument while turning the tire rod.

I used electrical conduit as the long rod, the uprights are "1/16 x 3/4 steel I had laying around.

That is why I have sons! The oldest is a licensed mechanic and the younger one needs to learn. In our family, all the boys have 10W30 in our veins.

Looks good to me. I use pickle buckets, masking tape, and a measureing tape, and angle iron for many kinds of projects. I just hope I haven't used them all up the next time I need to align a straight axle car or truck!

A great looking "contraption",and easily modifiable to suit any car.By the way,what model is the Oldsmobile you've got the "contraption" sitting on the hood?

that's my 71 Supreme SX

Short update:

I finally got to work on the car yesterday. Everything is now adjusted and well lubed. I check the toe and it was about 1/2" front to back, with no adjustment on my part, so i just left it. Unfortunately, I was out of time to go for a test drive, so stay tuned for the final results.

You need to adjust the toe in to the correct setting. 1/2 inch is way too much. You will find out in your test drive.

Hmm, farther up in the thread, Mr. Mack said he ended up with 1/2" toe and all is good. How much should I set it too? I know the manual says 1/8, but in all honesty, i don't know how you can get that accurate with 80 year old parts.

Keep in mind this is 1/2" difference front to back, not 1/2 per wheel from center.

It is a ferr piece between 1/8 and 1/2. Suggest you use the 1/8 measurment. MrMack will report the tire edge wear to us later.

the measurement should be 1/8" narrower in the front than the back. if everything is adjusted correctly the age of the parts shouldn't be a problem.

with 1/2" there will be excessive scrubbing of the tires but it sure should have tracked straight.

I had a little wander at 1/8" so I went to 3/16" and all is fine.

I am resurrecting this thread in order to begin year two work. Last year when i left off, one tie rod end was seized to the tie rod and would not budge. And on the other side the clamp around the tie rod is dubious, so I decide to get a new set from Gary Wallace. Arriving today, I discovered that he sent me a more modern pin type. They are labeled ES23-L and ES23-R. In discussion with him he said that is all he has for the 28 and the cup type are no longer available.

So here are my questions:

Has anyone here done such a replacement?
Does anyone here have an old complete cup style for sale if these don't work out?

I have found replacement parts on eBay and some from Model A suppliers. Don't remember if the ball studs have the right diameter stud end or not. Also understand that the Filling Station has parts that will fit the '28 tie rod ends. They also have the ball studs that have larger ball stud ends than the Model A suppliers. Between all of them rebuilding has not been a problem even if I end up with a few parts I can't use on a Chevy. If you don't find what you need send me a PM and I will check my stuff closer.

I checked the Filling Station and yes they have rebuild parts, but I need the whole units. My housings are in rough shape and the clamp on one needs replacing.

The replacement housings occasionally come up on eBay or you can try to find good used ones. If the search looks to be taking too long maybe yours can be repaired.

I found this listing at Vapinc: http://www.vapinc.com/chevy/Steering%20Parts/main.html

The list shell type and stud type. What has me confused is the ones I got from Gary are E23 and they list E29.

my brain hurts.

Well it's warmer today and I was able to get under the car and do some measurements and I highly doubt the e23 tie rod ends will fit. Unfortunately, the end that I thought was not seized is indeed seized onto the tie rod and did not fell like firing up the OA torch. with calipers I measured and it is close. However the stud size seems too small to fit where the ball is now and I am reluctant to take out the ball just to find out.

Any words of wisdom before I ship these back to Gary.

As my quest for new tie rod ends continues, I was just told that TWR part # ES 28 is a good replacement. Can someone confirm.

For 1928-9 the TRW ES28 was the stock replacement for the .791-16 thread tie rod. The ES10 3/4-16 thread end could be used but required the matching ET11 3/4 16 thread tie rod.
The 30-33 Chev used the ES29 which was also .791-16 thread but the jobber replacement was the ES23 and ET11 3/4-16 thread combination.
The difference between the ES28 and ES 29 is the taper of the stud .512 high taper and .493 low taper on the ES28 and .644 and .523 on the 29. If you do get an ES29 to fit into the tapered hole it may not draw down enough to be solid.

thanks for this info. i will try and get under the car tonight and measure the tie rod and threads, if my thread gauge goes this low. if not, I will have to count while on my back. the next issue will be the removal of the balls and this is the part that scares me since removal might destroy them. i doubt the holes have a taper and I have no clue who in town can do such machining.