I saw a 31 with single bar bumpers that the front and rear bumpers did not match. On one bumper the wrap around on the ends were straight or flat. The other bumper the wrap around was bowed or convex. Are they two different years? One original the other a repo? What can you tell me?

See you down the Back Roads

There are two kinds of single face bar bumpers for 1931-32. One has convex bumper ends with a Chevrolet bow tie on the back of the face bar, and the other has straight bumper ends with no bow tie on the back of the face bar. Somewhere I read that there were different manufacturers of the bumper face bars.

JunkYardDog, Would you agree that there should not be both types on the same vehicle?

For judging.....I would think that both the front and rear bumper face bars should match.

It is asthetically pleasing for the bumpers to match but should not be a point deduction in judging. Since bumpers were available to dealers in front and rear separately and I would suggest that the people in the parts warehouse would fill the order with what ever was at hand mixing them would be likely.

I concur that the bumpers were mixed by the dealer. My all original '32 is a fine example of that. However, I think that whether or not points should be deducted because of miss-matched bumpers is something that maybe the judging committee should discuss, and a permanent ruling should possibly be set. For example, all of the tires should match, so maybe the front and rear bumpers should match as well. But, then again, as I have been told, the year of the engine doesn't have to match the year of the car, only has to be the correct cubic inches, so, if this is correct, then mis-matched bumpers is probably a non-issue.

I guess we would need to know if the bumpers were changed during the year or if there were several makers of bumpers and if all the makers shipped to the same plants...?????

If the bumpers were changed during the model year then which bumpers you should have on the car would depend on the car's built date. Maybe????

Also like we have said in the past any paint color available for '32 is "ok" for the judges, does not have to match the cowl tag...but I guess some would just change the tag if the rule changed...

I would like for the tag and paint color to match, IMHO.

Of course it is hard for 1 person to see the front and rear bumper at the same time...LOL...it is like putting different wheel covers on the pass. side and the driver's side...just to have some fun...LOL

This discussion has turned into the very reason I nolonger have a vehicle judged or do any judging. Everything depends on the judging team and the rules set forth by the chief judge at that meet.I have seen cases that a person will get deducted for a after market part on a vehicle. They go out and spend the big money to purchase the original equipment part only to have the chief judge at the next meet state that there will be no point deduction for this very after market part.

Now I hear any engine is OK if it has the correct cubic inches. Any bumper is OK if the dealer got them mixed up. Where do we stop?

Let's go touring and have some fun.

Can I assume that there are other considerations than just cubic inches? A 1960s 194 CID engine in a 1932 might be a nice driver, but?

its my opinion that the casting # and casting date should be appropriate for the year chevy its installed it.a 29 block in a 31 or a 62 283 in a 57 chevy just not appropriate, IMHO. mikie

The whole judging process would be the simplist if all vehicles were judged strictly adhering to the "Philosophy" as printed on page 3 and 4 of the "Judging Manual". "The function of the judging process is to provide a way for our membership to evaluate the historical correctness, workmanship, authenticity, and condition of our Vintage Chevrolets. It is the owners' understanding that when they decide to have their vehicles judged that we, as club members, are comparing their vehicles to how the manufacturer delivered the vehicles to the dealer and on to the public."

Attempts to provide deviations or considerations for parts that are not longer generally available are noble but result in confusion, distrust and angst. They are well intentioned but actually create more problems than they are supposed to solve. If you want an example of a system that has been corrected to absurdity just look to the Federal Income Tax rules and requlations. Even the IRS does not understand it!

Maybe one day the Judging Committee will understand their futile efforts to attempt to please certain membership factions. I still have hope.

Well said

i have been through all the same problems as george and outher members in the judging process . my wife said i turn into a different person on the judging field and afer i thought about it she was correct . i try to get the vehicle as close as possible in kowledge and materials but nothing is perfect and it is in the eyes of the judge so in my old age i am taking the chippers advice ( unusal) to enjoy the meets and mostly the people and fellow members a few points here or there realy doesnot make much difference . if a vehicle has been restored it probably has something that was not exactly like te orignal and i dont mean running gear or body parts .sometimes it is hard to get the design on a cardboard headliner etc. oldpush

Right on Chip. If we could just get some consistency from meet to meet and year to year it would be great. It might be a good idea to have a Judging Committee meeting at each Anniversary Meet to go over problems and set the standard for the next five years and publish the findings in the G & D.

Another possibility is to have a National Chief Judge be thee Chief Judge at all National Judging Meets. This may result in less National Judging Meets but improve the Judging and National Awards System.

This string is the first time I heard about it doesn't matter what year engine is in a car as long as the C.I.D. is the same as original. I can remember many times in the past looking for casting dates to be sure a car had the correct engine.

See you down the Back Roads

NCRS has a full time national judging chairman who attends not only the national convention, but also the 6 to 8 regionals a year. NCRS, with dues at 30 bucks a year and only 16000 members, can afford to pay the chief judge a fair yearly salary. The various team leaders, who create and update the judging manuals, are volunteers.VCCA should consider hiring an extremely knowledgable member in an attempt to provide consistency from meet to meet. mike

Mike,
Judging is not as important a part of the VCCA as it is in the NCRS. I don't expect to have the Board to authorize any salary or compensation to judging people other than travel, mailing, phone and related expenses.

chip: with all due respect, and you've got mine, if a 29 194ci installed in a 31 chevy doesn't take a deduction, how will the owner of a bone stock 31 react to that judging malfeasance? lets push for vcca to hire a full time national judging chairman. shouldn't cost more than 50K/year, which spread over vcca's larger than- ncrs- membership, should almost certainly be affordable. my 1 cents worth. regards, mike

Excuse me Mike, but I think it would be a mistake to hire anyone in VCCA for a $50K salary. As to the number of members of VCCA (8000)compared to NcRS (16000) if your figures are right that club has twice as many members as VCCA. Judging of vintage Chevrolets is an important facet of VCCA but no longer is it the most important facet, probably never was...Any facet of the club's activity that fosters a huge interest surely has enough knowledgeable dedicated members to acomplish the clubs mission on a volunteer basis.
One point that, I believe, sours members on the VCCA system of judging and the process of advanceing through the "classes" is the fact that there is no ethical responsibility of those entering into the process as far as stateing the status of their cars, in my opinion every entrant should be required to list every item that is in conflict with the judging rules,that the owner is aware of or suspects is a point deductable item, instead they seem to delite in seeing how well they can cover up and cheat on items that should draw deductions.

Judging in the NCRS would be very simple compared to the VCCA.It consists of only one type of car that was produced in the last 50 years.VCCA cars include that car plus 100 years of various models,many years of which there is very little info. available.There would be no one person that could be an athourity on every year,shape size and variety of Chevrolet.

As to correct engine size only.I have never seen a car judged , or have judged a car on this basis.Nor is this mentioned in my 2/13/01 judging manual.This is false.I am sure some cars have slipped thru with incorrect engines due to the fact its not always possible to identify the engine year while judging due to the limited time and material available.

The incorrect engine issue was discussed here on Chevy Chatter, and in the G&D concerning judging changes in the last year or so as I remember. I think that Steve Scott was telling us about the possible changes. At any rate, if this change to the judging rules is actually true (?), it would have come about within the last year or two. Therefore, there would be nothing about it in the 2/13/01 judging manual.

Chipper Dipper or Steve Scott should be able to fill us in on this one, and then we will have the correct skinny.

Mike and others,
I wholeheartedly agree that the person that has made efforts to make every nut and bolt as correct as possible to "as manufactured" deserves the credit (and point difference from those that don't) on the judging field.

I have campaigned for many years to have the judging criteria be strictly "as delivered with approved accessories". It has been the opinion of others that it is impractical with the resources available. They cite time required to check the numbers, knowledge and experience of those judging, past point deduction problems, availablility of parts among others. Others feel that if the criteria is felt to be too difficult by owners that we will be forcing them to "street rod" the vehicles. I have countered with a two page fact sheet on the 1931 Chevys that could be used quickly and easily. It was basically ignored.

I must mention that there have been vast improvement in the judging process in the past few years. Judging schools, judge recognition, revisions in the form, publication of the Judging Manual are significant steps toward a first class judging system. I feel that we need to take the next step and figure out how to impliment the judging philosophy as completely as possible. So far we have expended most of the energy in defending the deviations. If enough members get involved with a unified voice then I think that the proper changes can be made.

Chipper Dipper. Can you clarify or confirm the issue regarding the cubic inches of the engine vs. the correct year of the engine as talked about in the 2003 issue of the G&D? Is it okay or is it not okay to have a 1951 216 engine in a 1948 model year car without any point deductions for the basic block itself since both vehicles used a 216 engine?

Ok -I found it in the May 2003 G&D

Reads as follows-

"When the judging team identifies a vehicle that does not have the correct engine displacement AND MODEL APPLICATION FOR YEAR OF MANUFACTURE a mandatory 100 point deduction will be made.We are going to ask that owners record their vehicle engine ID number from the engine stamp pad and to be sure to include the cubic inch displacement on the judging form. This means that the vehicle must have the correct motor for that year or a 100 point mandatory deduction will be accessed".

No where do I see a 1948 216 engine would be allowed in a 1951 216, etc.

Thank you Gene for clearing that question up. I had never heard otherwise until JunkYardDog brought it up.

Back Roads

I'm sorry I raised the question of bumpers that got all of this started.