Well said Steve!

When it comes to a national or major judging event,the cars entered should be of the highest quality. Consistancy is very important, but when it comes to a local level, we need to have the cars come out to the events. Maybe thats why adjustments have been made, it's a good policy.
But, if you have a bogus '70 LS6 and enter it in a national event in the hopes of driving up it's worth then shame on you!
Perhaps we need some sort of honesty declaration added to the VCCA application form, with dissmisal as a result if found that you falsely misrepresented the vehicle in a major event.

(I own and regularly show a champion dog. The AKC will never let me enter the dog again if I violate thier very strick rules. That's how they maintain the standards).

A couple of final comments on judging based on experience at meets. Many owners do not have a clue on the actual originality of their old Chevy. When they bought the car (some relatively recently) they were told that it was original. They do not have the expertise or motivation to check it by the numbers.

We have evaluated HPOCF vehicles that had repaints, exchanged engines and other parts that were thought to be or claimed to be original to the vehicle. So asking the owners is not a foolproof solution.

And some owners have their vehicles judged to find out what is correct and what is not. Some of those even get irritated when you tell them what is not correct. Then there are those that take the process as a personal attack on their integrety. Finally there are people like me that see how close the judges get to the point value that a vehicle really deserves. Typically they get from 10-50% of the deductions on my vehicles.

honesty declarations will only be filled out honestly by honest people. as an example, there's a vet dealer in the southeast whose cars have been ncrs-judged about 50 times i know of. he fills out the ncrs declaration stating his 435hp black/red roadster is totally original including the 427ci block.all this in spite of the car having previously belonged to a friend, at which time it sported a 327/300 hp small block.not sure a club can rely on ALL owners being honest.mike

In the two seasons since the mandatory engine deduction has been in place, we have had two owners that have been effected. We have had two owners deducted for air conditioning. I have been able to review every judging form from every National Meet. I can honestly say that the quality of evaluations have improved greatly since 1999. We are starting to get consistency in all areas of the country and I am very impressed with the knowledge of our membership. We are catching the items that we have been discussing. We have done a better job of communicating with Chief Judges and the team selections and team captains have been carefully organized. It is getting better. More and more members are understanding the process.

I know I sound like a politician but these are my observations from overseeing the program. The most important thing to me is good communication between us as members. If a member is in doubt, ask someone. Don't pretend to be an expert when you are not. It's OK not to know everything. Don't be afraid, or too proud to say, "I am not sure about this." We have a system designed to find out the answer before we deduct. It's when the deduction is done incorrectly when it should have been correct that really hurts the credibility.

Let's take Jim's bumper question. Between us in this thread, let's come up with a decision. We are all on the field. BackRoads, you are chief judge, Skipper, you are team captain and a team member comes to you with this question. First of all, I am very glad to see the team member that has spotted the discrepancy. That's because BackRoads discussed this at the judge's and owner's meeting. Chip is the deputy. Confederate is the owner of the vehicle. He has shown Skip the documentation of the two different bumpers. Based on GM documentation and our judging manual let's come up with a decision.

Steve

Wouldn`t it be great if we all able to own 100% original, unrestored and unmolested Chevrolets?? Even in my local VCCA club we have members that claim to own 100% unmolested cars, but they have things like heater switches and running board step plates that were not correct for the year of mfg! In my opinion the VCCA Judging is very important and necessary to uphold our integrity. I have yet to have my car judged yet(31 Ind AE) after over 2 1/2 years of trying real hard to get it right I`m relatively certain it would not be a 100 point car. That category should be reserved for only the best! I congratulate those fine people in our VCCA who volunteer to be involved in the judging process, I look forward to have my 31 judged and will not take it as a personal assault if point deductions are made, I will only consider it a learning process. Thanks for all you do Chipper, and all other judges for "trying" to preserve this organization`s credibility!!!

I would take a minor deduction based on my belief that a dealer would not install two different style bumpers on the same vehicle. We know bumpers were dealer installed because they are not factory equipment. It has been pointed out that both styles were available therefore only a minor deduction.

Back Roads

Not to be too picky but Skipper should be the first to comment or request an opinion in this scenario. His judge came to him with a question. He would either answer it or request backup information. Since the owner, Confederate, provided him with the documentation he has specific information at hand. Is he justified making the decision on his own or asking for assistance?

Being Deputy I will add my opinion when the form is given to me to review.

i may have missed something how does the owner come up with documentation of a dealer installed miss matched bumpers a lot of dealer installed parts for instance heaters if a person wanted a hot water heater on a 36 the parts person went to the shelf got a heater it may be a 36 it could be a 34 or 35 it fit and on the car it went so no way to say what the dealer put on we know it was not a 36 heater not right for the year but dealer installed . point deduction acc parts do not add but take away if they are not correct for the year or came from chevrolet such as delux cars that can be documented . and the list goes on . it should be judged as it came from chevrolet with correct to the year parts . and that opens up other subjecs in chevrolet making only components cab and chassie on and on oldpush

It's a major deduct because they are a missed match set.
I don't think a dealer would have installed them unless he had a matched set. If the owner insisted on having them not matching then the car was wrong to begin with.

I'm really enjoying this thread, but I must now weigh in. A dealer, then as now, would install anything on the car that he thought he could get away with. Besides, it was a mechanic who installed them and it would be surprising if he noticed the difference, much less cared. The dealer would gleefully authorize the installation of whatever was on hand and never give it a thought. It would be up to the owner to notice and complain. If that happened the dealer would downplay the whole deal, play dumb, and hope the customer would fall for it. Most dealers, throughout the history of the occupation, are not and were not "Car Guys". They would be selling bulldozers or windmills if the opportunity to make $ was the same.
Mike

You got that right 35mike, or they were probably good at "kiteing" the installment agreement papers makeing the $129.99 monthly payments for 36 months instead of 30 months! or turning back speedometers! They stayed awake at night thinking up a good reason to not fix Mrs. McGillicutie's new car so it didn't Shake, Rattle and Roll!

The point about the dealer putting anything on the car the owner wanted has been correct from the sources I have talked to over the years. The items put on the car must be those that were from General Motors and documented in the GM books. Local dealers many times would utilize local vendors to put on aftermarket accessories. I have a '99 Tahoe and I went to my Chevy dealer to order a hood screen to deflect rocks and insects. When I picked it up it was a $65.00 piece from LUND INC. I am not sure if Lund was contracted by GM to provide the screens to all GM trucks but if they were and it was in the GM Tahoe literature, then it should be correct. They were a contracted vendor from GM. However, I had to drill holes under the lip of the hood to screw it on. If it is not GM then it would be a deduction in my book. We have always said GM and what was offered in the GM literature. That is a good foundation to stick with.

I don't think the dealer or the factory would put a mis-matched set of bumpers on the vehicle. After thinking about this I would probably deduct for the fact that they were not matched. I would not deduct much and I would comment on the judging form the very same thing I just said. I would have been the team member. Skip, based on what has been discussed, it is your turn. Would you decide right on the field based on your knowledge about the bumper or would you discuss this with your deputy and chief and assistant judge before you decide? Your chief judge, Backroads says deduction, your team member in charge of exterior says minor deduction, what does the team captain and deputy say in this pow wow that we are having on the field, away from the owner, I might add!

35Mike is absolutely correct! The dealer didn't care and mis-matched bumpers were known to be installed on 1932 Chevrolets by the dealership. However, there is more to this scenario than just bumpers with convex ends and straight ends. We also have the issue of the solid rear bumper vs. the bumperettes. For example, there were two types of rear bumper assemblies, the solid rear bumper and the bumperettes. Technically speaking, the solid rear bumper was intended to be used when either the accessory extension luggage carrier or the accessory folding trunk racks were installed. The bumperettes were intended to be used when there was a rear mounted spare. So, besides the bumper ends not matching front and rear, now you have another scenario to throw into the pot.

Bottom line, the customer could have whatever he wanted....even though the bumpers were sold in sets. Chevrolet literature of the period, i.e. Service News, filmstrips and etc. do show cars with a trunk rack that have bumperettes installed. This is documented proof. Here again, if the customer didn't care one way or the other, and if the dealer only had one bumper set in stock that included bumperettes, then those could be installed.

Okay, to answer this last scenario first, should points be deducted for bumperettes that are installed on a car that has a trunk rack or luggage carrier? No, because there is documentation to back up that bumperettes were indeed installed on vehicles that did not have a rear spare.

On the former scenario with the mis-matched bumper ends. Myself, I believe that all items should match, which includes tires, the correct engine (hey, the car didn't come from the factory with the wrong year engine installed), the paint on the car should match the paint code number on the cowl tag (the same is true for the interior trim and the trim number), the Job Number should match the body that is on the chassis, and the bumpers front and rear should match as well. However, with that said, if the owner of the car steps forward with documented proof that the front and rear bumper ends didn't match, then no points should be deducted. And, to go one step further, if a '32 shows up on the judging field with no bumpers installed at all, then points should not be deducted for that either since in 1932 bumpers were an accessory at extra cost, and not a factory installed item.

By the way, there were two types of bumperettes also.....those with the convex ends and those with the straight ends.

Would also be correct if it had just front bumpers and no rears???

Were the front and rear installation kits available seperately??

It would be easy to see if fronts and rears didn't match due to the fact that the sets could have been ordered at different times and could have had one style from an earlier shippment and one from a later shippment.The dealer had to sell them all.

If both style bumpers carried the same part number and year application they would be correct as a dealer installed item , even if they are mixed-no??

Or possible that one bumper was replaced a year later due to collision.

My head is starting to hurt...

The committee that deals with judging and trying to make everyone happy should be given a lifetime supply of aspirin by the VCCA...

Yeah Gator...
3 pages of good hearted squabling is getting to me too...
Maybe I'll bolt on my old front bumper, Ya know the one with the CONVEX in the center of it! I still got the police report and tree bark to prove it's authentic!

We haven't gotten started yet. There are eight pages on tow vehicles.

In the Aug. 1931 "Master Price Parts List" page 100 is the following:

BUMPERS AND FENDER GUARDS - SINGLE FACE BAR

Ind, C Two Front Bumpers with Attaching Parts . . . . . . . Installed 20.00 363368

Ind, C One Front Bumper and Two Rear Fender Guard with Attaching Parts . . . . . Installed 20.00 363370

Ind, C One Front Bumper and One Rear Bumper with Attaching Parts . . . . . . Installed 20.00 363372

Feb. '32 has the same listing on page 128

Page 62 of the December 15, 1931 Parts Price List Confederate Model

contains the same listing under BUMPERS AND FENDER GUARDS

Then there are listings for the separate bumper face bars, attaching bars also.

Now let's get back to the scenario. Given that the information above was laid on the front seat by Confederate. It was available to the Judging Team including the Team Captain. Since the deduction or lack their of by the Team Member is unknown we must assume that there was a deduction as the lack of a deduction would not be reviewed by anyone other than the Team Captain. The Team Captain, Skipper, affirmed the deduction as appropriate both the judge and Team Captain, added a comment ("A-bump mismatch") [for you non-judges A = Authenticity and the comment indicates why the deduction was made.] initialed the form then gave it to the runner.

I as Deputy received the form with deduction on bumpers from the runner. In reviewing the form I noted the point deduction for mismatched bumpers. I now have three options, agree with the Judging Team and Captain and initial the form, disagree on the deduction and remove the deduction or reduce the points (adding my initials at the cross-out or reduced number) or the one that I would actually take. Having a question on why the deduction was made because of my opinion: 1. that there were at least two suppliers of single bar bumpers, 2. that the workers in the parts warehouse did not care which parts were used to fill the order as long as they had the proper part number, 3. that the mechanics at the dealership did not care either as they only got paid for putting on bumpers not assuring that the front and rears matched exactly. I would go back to the Team Captain to ask about the rationale for the deduction. If they were adamant I would initial and send to the Chief Judge – Back Roads. If they changed their minds, I would cross-out the deduction, initial the change with the Team Captain and/or Judges initials and then send to Back Roads.

I am really looking forward to having my car judged the first time, does that make me a masochist?

No Gator I wouldn't say it makes you a maosetungist or whatever you said, just plain Chevrolet crazy.

Go fer it!

According to the April 1934 Master Parts Price List the price dropped to only $15.00 installed.

MMMM...Chipper, I would say your #3 is more accurate.

Since the VCCA requires that all of the tires on a vehicle match wouldn't it be consistent for the VCCA to require that both bumpers match. IMHO

What other items come in pairs (or multi-) on the car that were supplied by different vendors that maybe looked different? Which could cause a problem; Lenses, inside sun visors, horns, etc...

Maybe a general statement by the VCCA regarding this issue of matching parts for all vehicles/years would solve future problems. IMHO